My energy provider is pushing me to have a smart meter

MultiFuelBurner

2010 said:

One of the great reasons given for getting a SM is accurate billing.

Energy firms held a combined £8.1bn of customers' bill overpayments at the start of 2023, new Ofgem figures show.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-66992865

Where do we start with this ermmmmm....there is a thread already about that in the forum.

More to do with customers and businesses paying by fixed amount direct debit and not about those with smart meters paying MVDD (monthly variable direct debit)

Qyburn

Emily_Joy said:

No. But I do think that if I ever need to submit insurance claim for some damage caused to the house, the insurance provider could/will request the smart meter data and use it to establish whether the house was occupied in the way set in their usually very vague T&C.

That sounds like you routinely leave the property unoccupied in breach of their terms and conditions. Otherwise you'd be glad that smart meter data could be used as evidence that you were complying. 

deano2099

[Deleted User] said:

deano2099 said:

Dolor said:

deano2099 said:

Miser1964 said:

They know the grid will collapse sooner rather than later and are desperate to roll-out 'smart' meters to use dynamic pricing to try and reduce demand when consumers see the surge tariff is £1/kWh. 

That's an interesting point actually. I'm a big fan of smart meters and I do think the good outweighs the bad, but there's a point here that in current emergency situations, the UK has a system of geographical rolling blackouts that is broadly designed to be "fair". Doesn't matter if you're rich or poor, the electric goes out in this part of the map at these times.
I suspect, with smart metering, you're right that that's exactly what will happen. They'll increase the unit price in emergencies to cut demand. Meaning the rich can continue to get power while the poor will face longer periods of power cuts.
I know there's other smart meter fans here, what do you think? Valid concern?

Complete and utter rubbish. Suppliers cannot just increase prices unless the contract that was signed allows them to do so. For those on a variable tariff, suppliers have to notify consumers of any price increase with enough time to allow them to switch to another tariff or supplier. The upper limit of all SVTs is constrained by the Ofgem Cap. 

Yes, there are some people on this forum who have signed up to a contract which has a £1 per kWh Cap limit. Agile for example has a very clear formula based on wholesale prices so there is no hidden agenda here.

We do love our conspiracy theories on this forum.

Ahh. That disappointing. Unnecessarily rude. And you've always been one of the better posters on here. Ah well.

The notion that the system will manipulate prices to favour the wealthy is ‘complete and utter nonsense’. It was not an attack against the poster just his/her suggestion that smart meters will be used in the way suggested. Yes, we will see more and more smart time-of-use tariffs to ‘encourage’ consumers to move some of their energy use to periods when available supply exceeds demand. However, and I will say it again, the limits of manoeuvre will be constrained by the contracts that consumers sign and Government interventions such as the Ofgem Cap. 

For those diehards who want to use energy in any amount and at anytime, there will be much more expensive standard tariffs as is the case in many other countries today.

Rather than concentrate on the downsides of getting a smart meter let me offer two additional positives. Work is ongoing to allow smart meter data to be used to monitor the activity of the elderly and vulnerable. Tools have been developed to extract smart meter data from meters to populate price comparisons: that is, the cheapest tariff will be selected on the basis of not just how much energy is used but when it is used. There is nothing Machiavellian about smart metering. Those that think otherwise should try to understand why countries across the World are building smart grids.

Again, you're utterly missing the point. This has nothing to do with suppliers and tariffs whatsoever. I know all that. For the record, I love smart meters, I have one, I think they're a brilliant piece of tech. And think most of the complaints about them are utter nonsense. But also I refuse to just therefore stop engaging with any potential downside, because y'know, I'm not the marketing department for smart meters, I get to use my brain. I'm not even sure what I'm suggesting would be an issue, but the fact that all the regular "pro smart-meter" folk on here (of which I'm usually one) have ignored the point and just talked about other, entirely different cases, is making me think I'm onto something. Honestly when I posted it I was probably 20% thinking I had a point, 80% thinking someone would go "ah no, the grid doesn't actually work that way so it couldn't happen".

Let me flip this around. The current emergency plan for an energy shortage in the UK is rolling blackouts based on area, in, at least what is meant to be, a fair way. Once we have a 99.9% smart-meter managed grid, do you expect that to remain the same? Or do you expect it to change?

powerful_Rogue

Emily_Joy said:

oldernonethewiser said: What are folk worried aboout?

I personally worry about the fact that the smart meter collects information about how much and when the electricity/gas is used in my house. My partner and I, we are away from home often and for a long time (e.g. I was working abroad all September). The gas & electricity usage obviously indicate whether the house is occupied/lived in or not. I don't want this information to be collected and/or stored anywhere. 

My house must look empty for the summer, along with thousands of others because all electricity is solar generated and we don't use the gas.

[Deleted User]

Let me flip this around. The current emergency plan for an energy shortage in the UK is rolling blackouts based on area, in, at least what is meant to be, a fair way. Once we have a 99.9% smart-meter managed grid, do you expect that to remain the same? Or do you expect it to change?

Planned power cuts have always been managed by DNOs on a rotational/area basis. By doing so, they can minimise the effect on the Grid as a whole.

Doing it by smart meter would require a detailed check of homes and suppliers. Suppliers would have to be informed when to send out thousands of disconnect and reconnect messages via the DCC network. What could possibly go wrong with this added and unnecessary level of complexity? Doing by DNO region, keeps it simple and manageable. I cannot see this changing.

EssexHebridean

There is also the point that once we are at the stage of the grid being almost entirely "smart" there will be more incentive for people to use energy at "better" times than currently - as more folk move on to various different TOU tariffs which incentivise them to use energy when it will cost them less. I believe that the expectation is that this in itself will help to balance the peaks and troughs of energy use and so make blackouts less likely to be needed. 

ArbitraryRandom

deano2099 said:

Let me flip this around. The current emergency plan for an energy shortage in the UK is rolling blackouts based on area, in, at least what is meant to be, a fair way. Once we have a 99.9% smart-meter managed grid, do you expect that to remain the same? Or do you expect it to change?

I expect it to be handled the same way as it was last winter and the same as we see with Octopus agile now - with people being incentivised to use power at different times by the price being lower at some times, and that it will be on a regional or rolling basis as we don't want everyone switching their usage to the same time and shifting the demand. 

I think it's a matter of perspective - you're suggesting a dystopian future where they'll hike the price so only the 'rich' can afford peak rate energy... I'll say any government that allows that to happen wouldn't last 5 minutes and the 'rich' will have solar panels and batteries anyway. 

Gerry1

@[Deleted User] So why has all this allegedly unnecessary functionality been built in to smart meters if it will never be used?

The answer is that rota cuts are very imprecise and just a crude last resort.  Targeting can be far more precise with smart meters, rather like a cruise missile compared to a thousand pounder !   In reality, Surge Pricing and Load Limiting are likely to be implemented before Load Shedding.

The reason for these restrictions is that households will be using far more electricity as the changeovers to heatpumps and EV takes place.  Total usage may well triple and the street cabling and substations wouldn't be able to cope with peak demand.

You normally seem to be very well informed, presumably because of related career experience; I'm surprised why you are so dismissive of the implications arising from the Demand Side Response / Smart Grid projects.

deano2099

[Deleted User] said:

Let me flip this around. The current emergency plan for an energy shortage in the UK is rolling blackouts based on area, in, at least what is meant to be, a fair way. Once we have a 99.9% smart-meter managed grid, do you expect that to remain the same? Or do you expect it to change?

Planned power cuts have always been managed by DNOs on a rotational/area basis. By doing so, they can minimise the effect on the Grid as a whole.

Doing it by smart meter would require a detailed check of homes and suppliers. Suppliers would have to be informed when to send out thousands of disconnect and reconnect messages via the DCC network. What could possibly go wrong with this added and unnecessary level of complexity? Doing by DNO region, keeps it simple and manageable. I cannot see this changing.

You say that like the current emergency system is easy and foolproof. When it actually involves things like sending batteries to those who have medical needs for energy and so on.

deano2099

EssexHebridean said:

There is also the point that once we are at the stage of the grid being almost entirely "smart" there will be more incentive for people to use energy at "better" times than currently - as more folk move on to various different TOU tariffs which incentivise them to use energy when it will cost them less. I believe that the expectation is that this in itself will help to balance the peaks and troughs of energy use and so make blackouts less likely to be needed. 

But that's also part of the problem isn't it? I agree with the core point: a smart grid absolutely makes it less likely for emergency measures to be needed, but they can only incentivise up to a certain point, otherwise you get what the conspiracy theorists are talking about which is "yeah, no power cuts, they just charge £10 a unit".
So if you want to keep those safeguards, you will still need an emergency plan for when situations place us outside of what incentives/dis-incentives an manipulate.