My energy provider is pushing me to have a smart meter

[Deleted User]

deano2099 said:

[Deleted User] said:

Let me flip this around. The current emergency plan for an energy shortage in the UK is rolling blackouts based on area, in, at least what is meant to be, a fair way. Once we have a 99.9% smart-meter managed grid, do you expect that to remain the same? Or do you expect it to change?

Planned power cuts have always been managed by DNOs on a rotational/area basis. By doing so, they can minimise the effect on the Grid as a whole.

Doing it by smart meter would require a detailed check of homes and suppliers. Suppliers would have to be informed when to send out thousands of disconnect and reconnect messages via the DCC network. What could possibly go wrong with this added and unnecessary level of complexity? Doing by DNO region, keeps it simple and manageable. I cannot see this changing.

You say that like the current emergency system is easy and foolproof. When it actually involves things like sending batteries to those who have medical needs for energy and so on.

Generally, those with medical needs have standby batteries or with notice can delay the start of home treatment. Rotational 3 hour cuts in the past do not appear to have resulted in deaths.

badmemory

Generally, those with medical needs have standby batteries or with notice can delay the start of home treatment. Rotational 3 hour cuts in the past do not appear to have resulted in deaths.

You are right there were probably only a few.  But back then you could have an ordinary phone which you could use to call an ambulance.  That is being removed here they say before new year.  With no mobile signal that could get interesting.

QrizB

badmemory said:

Generally, those with medical needs have standby batteries or with notice can delay the start of home treatment. Rotational 3 hour cuts in the past do not appear to have resulted in deaths.

You are right there were probably only a few.  But back then you could have an ordinary phone which you could use to call an ambulance.  That is being removed here they say before new year.  With no mobile signal that could get interesting.

If it really bothers you, you could buy a UPS for your router/ONT. It will then stay up for as long as the UPS lasts, or as long as the bateries in your BT cabinet last.
(And with the old phone system you're relying on the UPS/generator at your telephone exchange, so not that much different.)

MultiFuelBurner

What do they call them in America "Preppers"?

Preppers are defensively pessimistic, motivated by fear, and seek out environments that are stable and predictable

Just because something is delivered with certain functionality does mean it will be used but there seems to be a mentality driven by fear and pessimism with regards to smart meters. With those people only wanting to stick with what they and their parents had an old non smart meter. Something they believe is stable and predictable.

badmemory

Of course you could call it facing reality.  Do you remember the 70 year old couple last year whose gas meter battery ran out in 2 years instead of 10, younger than me, they were left with no gas for a fortnight in mid winter because no-one could be bothered to go & replace the battery. It would probably never happen to you, but I bet you wouldn't have a new gas meter fitted & be left with a gas leak either.  So to think of trusting them to be competent is a little too much to ask of me.

QrizB

badmemory said:

Do you remember the 70 year old couple last year whose gas meter battery ran out in 2 years instead of 10, younger than me, they were left with no gas for a fortnight in mid winter because no-one could be bothered to go & replace the battery.

No I don't.

I do however recall dozens of threads on this forum where gas meter batteries have gone flat and meters have stopped recording usage, but have continued to supply gas.

Can you provide a link to a news report for this story? Because it sounds exactly like the sort of made-up nonsense that gets spread around on social media.

doodling

Hi,

Gerry1 said:

@[Deleted User] So why has all this allegedly unnecessary functionality been built in to smart meters if it will never be used?

The answer is that rota cuts are very imprecise and just a crude last resort.  Targeting can be far more precise with smart meters, rather like a cruise missile compared to a thousand pounder !   In reality, Surge Pricing and Load Limiting are likely to be implemented before Load Shedding.

The reason for these restrictions is that households will be using far more electricity as the changeovers to heatpumps and EV takes place.  Total usage may well triple and the street cabling and substations wouldn't be able to cope with peak demand.

You normally seem to be very well informed, presumably because of related career experience; I'm surprised why you are so dismissive of the implications arising from the Demand Side Response / Smart Grid projects.

No rational DNO would use smart meters to implement anything like rota disconnection.  It would be a recipe for mass meter tampering (or just wrapping them in tin foil!). It just wouldn't work socially no matter what the specification says.

Load limiting is also largely valueless to manage overall grid load, the issue with the current demand peaks is not a massive load from a small number proportion of houses, it is a medium load from many houses.  You'd need to load limit at well below 1kW (I would speculate something like 700W) to have a material impact and if you're going to do that then you might as well turn it off.  See also the meter tampering point above.

Voltage reduction is largely accepted as being of marginal value now due to the rise of electronically controlled loads.  Even traditional thermostatically controlled loads only give you the time constant of the thermostat before your voltage reduction becomes valueless.

The problem is that the smart meter specification contains lots of stuff which an engineer thought was a good idea - they were paid to come up with a list of features you might want in a smart meter and to be blunt have asked for everything that a meter with an integrated switch could deliver.  The engineers who came up with the spec are not experts in the behaviour of the population at large, that isn't their job.

Where smart meter will find their place is in training the population to use electricity at the best time of day to help manage the grid.

In theory, in the long run, that training is actually pointless of course.  In order for wind and solar to be useful on a larger scale the grid will need sufficient energy storage that it won't matter when we consume electricity (certainly for the majority of the time).  (Just as the economics of having batteries at home will gradually deteriorate as they are effectively competing against commercial organisations doing it at a scale a million times larger).

deano2099

doodling said:

Hi,

Gerry1 said:

@[Deleted User] So why has all this allegedly unnecessary functionality been built in to smart meters if it will never be used?

The answer is that rota cuts are very imprecise and just a crude last resort.  Targeting can be far more precise with smart meters, rather like a cruise missile compared to a thousand pounder !   In reality, Surge Pricing and Load Limiting are likely to be implemented before Load Shedding.

The reason for these restrictions is that households will be using far more electricity as the changeovers to heatpumps and EV takes place.  Total usage may well triple and the street cabling and substations wouldn't be able to cope with peak demand.

You normally seem to be very well informed, presumably because of related career experience; I'm surprised why you are so dismissive of the implications arising from the Demand Side Response / Smart Grid projects.

No rational DNO would use smart meters to implement anything like rota disconnection.  It would be a recipe for mass meter tampering (or just wrapping them in tin foil!). It just wouldn't work socially no matter what the specification says.

Load limiting is also largely valueless to manage overall grid load, the issue with the current demand peaks is not a massive load from a small number proportion of houses, it is a medium load from many houses.  You'd need to load limit at well below 1kW (I would speculate something like 700W) to have a material impact and if you're going to do that then you might as well turn it off.  See also the meter tampering point above.

Voltage reduction is largely accepted as being of marginal value now due to the rise of electronically controlled loads.  Even traditional thermostatically controlled loads only give you the time constant of the thermostat before your voltage reduction becomes valueless.

Thanks for actually addressing the point! I'm convinced.

[Deleted User]

There is a tendency in these discussions to concentrate on the worst case: eg; suppliers can disconnect consumers remotely from the Grid. I would say that it is more likely that suppliers will offer power-limited tariffs where frequent breaches will result in remote disconnection as AGREED by contract with the consumer. This is how it works in Spain. France has similar power-limited tariffs:

‘Make sure you are contracted for the right amount of power

The term ‘contracted power’ refers to the maximum amount of electricity you can use at any given time and is measured in kW or kilowatts.

This is sometimes referred to as the ‘potencia’ and will typically be 3.45 kW or 5.75 kW.

Many energy firms will automatically place you on a kW contract which is too high for your needs costing you more money.

If you are in doubt as to what your contracted power should be, check the previous year's consumption and compared this to the kW rate on your bill.

As a guide, the following is typical contracted power in Spain.

• Small Home - Contracted power 3.45 kW
• Medium Sized Home - Contracted power 5.75 kW
• Larger Home - Contracted 10.35 kW

The larger your contracted power, the more appliances you can run at the same time.

However, having a larger contracted power also increases the cost of your bills so it makes perfect sense to adjust your contracted power so it is a more accurate reflection of your personal energy usage.

Smaller homes and families may find it more practical to have a lower contracted power of around 3.45 kW than say a large family running a lot more appliances at once who may need 5.75 kW.

If you find that your power keeps tripping when you are running certain appliances at the same time, it is an indication that your contracted power could be set too low. This would mean that you would either need to increase it, which would increase your bill, or stop running certain appliances at the same time.

Getting your contracted power right can be one of the best ways of reducing your electricity bills here in Spain.

Reducing your contracted power by just one point, for example from 3.4 kW to 3.3 kW, could save you around €50 per year.’

Compared to Italy; France and Spain, we are just at the start of our Smart Grid journey.

Boxman

Dolor, based on all your postings I am (genuinely) impressed with your overall knowledge of how things work in energy supplies. I would be interested to know how you acquired all your knowledge, do you work for (or have previously work for) a power company?