My energy provider is pushing me to have a smart meter

MultiFuelBurner

deano2099 said:

Miser1964 said:

They know the grid will collapse sooner rather than later and are desperate to roll-out 'smart' meters to use dynamic pricing to try and reduce demand when consumers see the surge tariff is £1/kWh. 

That's an interesting point actually. I'm a big fan of smart meters and I do think the good outweighs the bad, but there's a point here that in current emergency situations, the UK has a system of geographical rolling blackouts that is broadly designed to be "fair". Doesn't matter if you're rich or poor, the electric goes out in this part of the map at these times.
I suspect, with smart metering, you're right that that's exactly what will happen. They'll increase the unit price in emergencies to cut demand. Meaning the rich can continue to get power while the poor will face longer periods of power cuts.
I know there's other smart meter fans here, what do you think? Valid concern?

No as that's why we have a price cap standard variable rate tariffs and it also wouldn't apply to fixed tariffs either. 

Not a valid concern imo

matt_drummer

deano2099 said:

Miser1964 said:

They know the grid will collapse sooner rather than later and are desperate to roll-out 'smart' meters to use dynamic pricing to try and reduce demand when consumers see the surge tariff is £1/kWh. 

That's an interesting point actually. I'm a big fan of smart meters and I do think the good outweighs the bad, but there's a point here that in current emergency situations, the UK has a system of geographical rolling blackouts that is broadly designed to be "fair". Doesn't matter if you're rich or poor, the electric goes out in this part of the map at these times.
I suspect, with smart metering, you're right that that's exactly what will happen. They'll increase the unit price in emergencies to cut demand. Meaning the rich can continue to get power while the poor will face longer periods of power cuts.
I know there's other smart meter fans here, what do you think? Valid concern?

No., not a valid concern in my opinion.

There are no smart meter fans particularly, just people who like paying the least possible for their energy consumption and the best way to do that is with smart meters.

It will never happen where smart metered properties are charged more on an SVT at a point in the day when those without smart meters get to enjoy unlimited use at their normal tariff rate.

If it ever came to it, which I don't think it will, whole areas would be turned off for periods of time.

But I see no reason for that to happen, these are businesses that want to sell energy, not restrict use to inflict discomfort on customers.

It could never be the case, and would never be allowed to happen that those who refused smart meters benefitted.

What I think will happen is that those who refuse smart meters will be financially penalised until their position becomes untenable.

In the end demand needs to be managed and there may times of the day where consumption is more expensive but it will be balanced by cheaper periods. We already have tariffs like this.

As I said, these are businesses and they will want to attract customers and they will only do that through competition and with innovative and competitive tariffs

QrizB

deano2099 said:

Miser1964 said:

They know the grid will collapse sooner rather than later and are desperate to roll-out 'smart' meters to use dynamic pricing to try and reduce demand when consumers see the surge tariff is £1/kWh. 

That's an interesting point actually. I'm a big fan of smart meters and I do think the good outweighs the bad, but there's a point here that in current emergency situations, the UK has a system of geographical rolling blackouts that is broadly designed to be "fair". Doesn't matter if you're rich or poor, the electric goes out in this part of the map at these times.
I suspect, with smart metering, you're right that that's exactly what will happen. They'll increase the unit price in emergencies to cut demand. Meaning the rich can continue to get power while the poor will face longer periods of power cuts.
I know there's other smart meter fans here, what do you think? Valid concern?

People (like me) on wholesale-tracking tariffs already accept that possibility - £1 per kWh for electricity, 30p for gas - as the flipside of having roughly half-price energy for most of the year so far.

For the general public on the capped SVT or a fixed-rate tariff? I think it's very unlikely.

ArbitraryRandom

Just look at this recent energy crisis - the reason so many businesses collapsed was because the government brought in an artificial cap to 'protect' people who couldn't be bothered to switch. Not to mention the 'cost of living' subsidies... 

Netexporter

The grid collapse thing is a bit of a myth. Electricity consumption has declined massively, in the past decade or so, owing to more efficient appliances and particularly lighting. So there is already some slack in the system. Smart meters, combined with distributed storage and generation (home batteries ans PV, for example), effectively increase the capacity of local distribution networks, obviating imposing large demand on the "super-grid".

Yes, we will need more transmission infrastructure, but smart meters are part of the "brain" (perhaps nerves?) of the "intelligent grid", that enable it to operate to maximum efficiency.

[Deleted User]

deano2099 said:

Miser1964 said:

They know the grid will collapse sooner rather than later and are desperate to roll-out 'smart' meters to use dynamic pricing to try and reduce demand when consumers see the surge tariff is £1/kWh. 

That's an interesting point actually. I'm a big fan of smart meters and I do think the good outweighs the bad, but there's a point here that in current emergency situations, the UK has a system of geographical rolling blackouts that is broadly designed to be "fair". Doesn't matter if you're rich or poor, the electric goes out in this part of the map at these times.
I suspect, with smart metering, you're right that that's exactly what will happen. They'll increase the unit price in emergencies to cut demand. Meaning the rich can continue to get power while the poor will face longer periods of power cuts.
I know there's other smart meter fans here, what do you think? Valid concern?

Complete and utter rubbish. Suppliers cannot just increase prices unless the contract that was signed allows them to do so. For those on a variable tariff, suppliers have to notify consumers of any price increase with enough time to allow them to switch to another tariff or supplier. The upper limit of all SVTs is constrained by the Ofgem Cap. 

Yes, there are some people on this forum who have signed up to a contract which has a £1 per kWh Cap limit. Agile for example has a very clear formula based on wholesale prices so there is no hidden agenda here.

We do love our conspiracy theories on this forum.

Gerry1

Dolor said:

deano2099 said:

Miser1964 said:

They know the grid will collapse sooner rather than later and are desperate to roll-out 'smart' meters to use dynamic pricing to try and reduce demand when consumers see the surge tariff is £1/kWh. 

That's an interesting point actually. I'm a big fan of smart meters and I do think the good outweighs the bad, but there's a point here that in current emergency situations, the UK has a system of geographical rolling blackouts that is broadly designed to be "fair". Doesn't matter if you're rich or poor, the electric goes out in this part of the map at these times.
I suspect, with smart metering, you're right that that's exactly what will happen. They'll increase the unit price in emergencies to cut demand. Meaning the rich can continue to get power while the poor will face longer periods of power cuts.
I know there's other smart meter fans here, what do you think? Valid concern?

Complete and utter rubbish. Suppliers cannot just increase prices unless the contract that was signed allows them to do so. For those on a variable tariff, suppliers have to notify consumers of any price increase with enough time to allow them to switch to another tariff or supplier. The upper limit of all SVTs is constrained by the Ofgem Cap. 

Yes, there are some people on this forum who have signed up to a contract which has a £1 per kWh Cap limit. Agile for example has a very clear formula based on wholesale prices so there is no hidden agenda here.

We do love our conspiracy theories on this forum.

@[Deleted User] You're looking back at the system as it has been, not ahead to the Demand Side Response system that it will become with a Smart Grid.

It's a bit like saying there could never fast cars because the speed limit is 4mph and the man with the red flag couldn't keep up anyway, there'd never be a Channel Tunnel because the darkness, clouds of steam and build up of smoke would stop the drivers seeing the semaphore signals, or that you'll always be able to make 999 and ordinary calls from your landline during a long power cut because your phone will be powered over copper wires by the exchange battery.

The regulators will just relax the rules accordingly just as they have in the past.  And considering customers won't be their priority.

Only those who haven't read the smart meter specification would resort to mentioning 'conspiracy theories': rationing, surge pricing and remote disconnection are all baked in, ready and waiting.

Of course, this may be the way we have to go when the massive increase in peak demands caused by heatpumps and pure EVs means that there will be times when the street cables and substations won't be able to cope, even if the generating capacity could always do so (which seems unlikely).

What really grinds my gears is that these changes are not being publicised openly and transparently but quietly and stealthily.  All the consumer hears about are shiny toys and loss leading tariffs, not that they will be giving up ultimate control to whatever their smart meter and smart charger will allow them to do.

Netexporter

What the conspiracy theorists forget is that the suppliers are in the business of selling energy. If they cut you off that make no profit, assuming there is no profit element in the daily charge.

Gerry1

Netexporter said:

What the conspiracy theorists forget is that the suppliers are in the business of selling energy. If they cut you off that make no profit, assuming there is no profit element in the daily charge.

@Netexporter Not a case of the suppliers choosing to cut you off, there will be times when the supply simply can't meet the demand even with 3% and 6% voltage reductions.

Have you not noticed the little letter tucked away on your bill showing you which disconnection rota you're on, or is that just another conspiracy theory?

matt_drummer

Gerry1 said:

Dolor said:

deano2099 said:

Miser1964 said:

They know the grid will collapse sooner rather than later and are desperate to roll-out 'smart' meters to use dynamic pricing to try and reduce demand when consumers see the surge tariff is £1/kWh. 

That's an interesting point actually. I'm a big fan of smart meters and I do think the good outweighs the bad, but there's a point here that in current emergency situations, the UK has a system of geographical rolling blackouts that is broadly designed to be "fair". Doesn't matter if you're rich or poor, the electric goes out in this part of the map at these times.
I suspect, with smart metering, you're right that that's exactly what will happen. They'll increase the unit price in emergencies to cut demand. Meaning the rich can continue to get power while the poor will face longer periods of power cuts.
I know there's other smart meter fans here, what do you think? Valid concern?

Complete and utter rubbish. Suppliers cannot just increase prices unless the contract that was signed allows them to do so. For those on a variable tariff, suppliers have to notify consumers of any price increase with enough time to allow them to switch to another tariff or supplier. The upper limit of all SVTs is constrained by the Ofgem Cap. 

Yes, there are some people on this forum who have signed up to a contract which has a £1 per kWh Cap limit. Agile for example has a very clear formula based on wholesale prices so there is no hidden agenda here.

We do love our conspiracy theories on this forum.

@[Deleted User] You're looking back at the system as it has been, not ahead to the Demand Side Response system that it will become with a Smart Grid.

It's a bit like saying there could never fast cars because the speed limit is 4mph and the man with the red flag couldn't keep up anyway, there'd never be a Channel Tunnel because the darkness, clouds of steam and build up of smoke would stop the drivers seeing the semaphore signals, or that you'll always be able to make 999 and ordinary calls from your landline during a long power cut because your phone will be powered over copper wires by the exchange battery.

The regulators will just relax the rules accordingly just as they have in the past.  And considering customers won't be their priority.

Only those who haven't read the smart meter specification would resort to mentioning 'conspiracy theories': rationing, surge pricing and remote disconnection are all baked in, ready and waiting.

Of course, this may be the way we have to go when the massive increase in peak demands caused by heatpumps and pure EVs means that there will be times when the street cables and substations won't be able to cope, even if the generating capacity could always do so (which seems unlikely).

What really grinds my gears is that these changes are not being publicised openly and transparently but quietly and stealthily.  All the consumer hears about are shiny toys and loss leading tariffs, not that they will be giving up ultimate control to whatever their smart meter and smart charger will allow them to do.

Even if all of that were true, what makes you think that not having a smart meter will make you immune from it?

They will make sure that those without smart meters suffer even more, they couldn't possibly leave you out of the pain.

However bad you think it could be for those with smart meters I can guarantee that it will be even worse for those without.

You will tell us that because you don't have smart meters you are untouchable but all they will do is put you on the highest rate all of the time.

Then you'll want smart meters.


It is in the open and any rational person doesn't care, these are businesses and they want to sell energy. Why on earth would they want to stop you buying it?