Air Source Heat Pump - Planning permission required!

matt_drummer

Reed_Richards said:

The issue of planning permission for heat pumps is grossly unfair in placing restrictions on heat pumps that don't apply to gas or oil boilers.  No doubt about that!  But please don't get so fixated on the issue of planning permission that you lose sight of the bigger picture.  This is a fine mess that Octopus have gotten you into by dealing with only one heat pump supplier.  Other quieter ASHPs are available.   

That is not necessarily true.

My reason for failure is more to do with the siting of the pump as I have three reflective surfaces within 1 metre of the pump, if it wasn't within 1 metre of my conservatory I wouldn't have a problem. If I demolish the conservatory I wouldn't have a problem.

The noise levels quoted are the maximums.

This heat pump may well be quieter than any other heat pump available when operating at 0c.

Maybe the maximum noise level is when operating at -25c, something it will not be doing in Ipswich.

The noise test is not based on actual noise volumes in operation on site, it just uses the maximum noise possible with in the full operating range of the pump.

If Daikin tested it to -25c and that's when they got the most noise, then that is the figure they must quote, it could be vitually silent at 0c for all i know and quietr than everything else available.


Perhaps what should actually be quoted and used in the MCS noise test is how loud they are under certain conditions so that a valid comparison can be made between manufacturers and models.

A bit like car fuel consumption, they are tested under controlled conditions so that comparisons can be made.

matt_drummer

Reed_Richards said:

The issue of planning permission for heat pumps is grossly unfair in placing restrictions on heat pumps that don't apply to gas or oil boilers.  No doubt about that!  But please don't get so fixated on the issue of planning permission that you lose sight of the bigger picture.  This is a fine mess that Octopus have gotten you into by dealing with only one heat pump supplier.  Other quieter ASHPs are available.   

What is the bigger picture?

I don't think Octopus have got me into a mess, they are going to install an ASHP at my home for considerably less money than anybody else I can find, in fact just finding anybody to quote is pretty difficult.

I'm sure it will just be a formality in the end.

I find it really interesting how our governments want to encourage being kind to the environment and thinking about the future, they'll even pay for some of it with a grant, but they've not really thought it through

This may well help someone in the future, hopefully somebody in control of this strategy to fit heat pumps will make the process easier so that people don't have to go through this planning process. Heat pumps are already a tough sell to most people, adding planning permission to the process is only going to put them off even more.

Mstty

matt_drummer said:

Mstty said:

Even though we have one they do look ugly as well so a good placement is also key. Not just to the advantage of orientation of the property owner.

I can see why planning may have stiffened up in some areas but Octopus choice of partner in Daikin may come back to bite them with those dB levels.

I have not chosen a placement to suit me or make installation easier and cheaper, it's going in the only place available at ground level. I could have had it high up on the wall, that would be worse, for my neighbours I suspect

I think ugly is a bit of a strong word, it's just a box.

I think some people are missing the point about the noise, the Daikin heat pump is not guaranteed to be noisier that any other heat pump.

The quoted noise level is the maximum that it can make, not what it will make in my location.

I don't know for sure, but I suspect the maximum noise level quoted is higher because it is capable of working in more extreme environments than some other heat pumps, it works down to -25c and if that is when it is working hardest, that is when it will make the most noise.

Working at 0c, for example, it may well be quieter than other heat pumps.

It is is not necessarily a noisy heat pump.

The problem w is that you have to use the maximum number is the noise calculation, even if it will never be that loud.

Don't take this personally I was just pointing out their are orientations and positions that the heat pump will work more efficiently at so I can see why planning may want to see what wall a heat pump is placed and it's affects on neighbours and if another wall may be better for neighbours but not necessarily for the property owner.

I have one and they are ugly to us, so do our neighbours and they agree they are ugly outside boxes but as they become more common it will just become the norm. 

Octopus have shot themselves in the foot imo.

matt_drummer

Mstty said:

Don't take this personally I was just pointing out their are orientations and positions that the heat pump will work more efficiently at so I can see why planning may want to see what wall a heat pump is placed and it's affects on neighbours and if another wall may be better for neighbours but not necessarily for the property owner.

I have one and they are ugly to us, so do our neighbours and they agree they are ugly outside boxes but as they become more common it will just become the norm. 

Octopus have shot themselves in the foot imo.

I didn't take it personally, just wanted to make it clear that I have done everything to be as considerate to my neighbours as possible. They won't actually be able to see it, nobody will.

There is nothing wrong with the Daikin heat pump, the problem is the MCS noise test, it's not sophisticated enough. It has one set of parameters and the heat pumps noise is not being assessed under the same operating conditions.

The Vaillant Aerotherm plus is 60dB(A) with an air temperature of 7c and a flow temperature of 55c

The Daikin technical data gives a maximum noise of 62dB(A) at outside temperatures of -25c to +35c and a flow temperature of between 35c and 55c

From this information I truly cannot tell which heat pump is going to be quieter at my property.

How noisy will the Vaillant be at -25c with a flow temperature of 55c?

Maybe the Daikin heat pump is significantly quieter than the Vaillant?


I got this information here

https://www.vaillant.co.uk/specifiers/products/arotherm-plus-heat-pump-74048.html

https://www.daikin.co.uk/en_gb/product-group/air-to-water-heat-pump-low-temperature/daikin-altherma-3-monobloc.html#tabs-c14359152f-item-bd41565373-tab

Mstty

There has to be a level set somewhere and 60 dB is more than achievable and sensible.

Octopus have made a mistake partnering with a heat pump supplier that does not meet this regulation.

Forget other boilers that is not the rules for heat pumps no point wasting your time measuring what fossil fueled boilers are doing at work. It adds nothing to the issue at hand.

Did you say Octopus will pay to get the planning sorted? I may have misread that bit

matt_drummer

Mstty said:

There has to be a level set somewhere and 60 dB is more than achievable and sensible.

Octopus have made a mistake partnering with a heat pump supplier that does not meet this regulation.

Forget other boilers that is not the rules for heat pumps no point wasting your time measuring what fossil fueled boilers are doing at work. It adds nothing to the issue at hand.

Did you say Octopus will pay to get the planning sorted? I may have misread that bit

I'm not sure I am explaining this well enough.

For the MCS noise test you have to use the maximum noise quoted by the manufacturer.

Vaillant quote a maximum noise of 60dB at 7c outside air temperature and 55c water flow temperature.

At this level I would pass the MCS noise test, but I would assume that the Vaillant heat pump would be noisier than 60dB at -10c. Because they don't quote the noise level in these conditions I don't have to worry about it for the MCS noise test.


Daikin do not quote the noise level at 7c outside air temperature  and 55c water flow temperature so I cannot say which heat pump is noisier.

All we know is that because Daikin quote 62dB(A) in their documents we have to use this number in the MCS noise test.

This 62dB(A) noise level could be running 55c water flow temperature at -25c outside air temperature.


The problems are the Daikin information and the MCS noise test.


As I have neither of these heat pumps I do not know which one is actually noisier and nor does anybody else as far as I can see.


At my house, I am pretty sure that the Vaillant heat pump will actually be noisier than 60dB when I want my house heated when it is -10c outside.



Getting a feel for how noisy 62dB actually is has been useful to me, I wouldn't have actually known unless I compared it to something we can all relate to.

Of course, I realise completely that the noise of a gas or oil boiler has no bearing on my planning issue.


Octopus are going to provide me with the drawings required and the noise assessment to present to Ipswich Borough Council. They have not asked me for any payment, so I would assume that they are doing it themselves at their cost, whatever that might be.

matt_drummer

Mstty said:

There has to be a level set somewhere and 60 dB is more than achievable and sensible.

The MCS noise level is not 60dB, it is 42dB

42dB is really quiet!

I am sitting here alone at work in a really quiet office, it is the quietest place I know and can go to. I would say I was sitting here in absolute silence, like a library.

The average noise volume in here in the last 5 minutes is 42dB, that's what the MCS expect. Unrealistic for most locations in my opinion.

ispookie666

@matt_drummer
Do you really need to have A2W ? Why not scrap the whole thing and go with A2A. They are a lot more efficient. 
My 7.1 has been doing the heavy lifting and out oil consumption has pretty much halved (mainly for water heating) 

matt_drummer

ispookie666 said:

@matt_drummer
Do you really need to have A2W ? Why not scrap the whole thing and go with A2A. They are a lot more efficient. 
My 7.1 has been doing the heavy lifting and out oil consumption has pretty much halved (mainly for water heating) 

I don't have to go A2W, no.  I don't really like A2A as a heating source either, but I could live with it if I had to.

I just want to, I support it as a concept, I think it''s the future, I like Octopus and would be proud to have been part of it.

I am not doing it to save money, I have a fairly new gas boiler in great condition and I don't spend that much on gas considering how comfortably we live.

But like lots of things, I just want to do it for the experience and the challenge of not burning anything anymore and not buying any energy (net over the year comparing solar export to grid import).

matt_drummer

Mstty said:

There has to be a level set somewhere and 60 dB is more than achievable and sensible.

Octopus have made a mistake partnering with a heat pump supplier that does not meet this regulation.

There is not a set level or regulation of 60dB.

Octopus and Daikin have done nothing wrong.

It is just my particular house only really has one place where the heat pump can go on the ground. I could put it up at firs floor level out of sight of the highway, but I think that really would be ugly and I wouldn't expect any of my neighbours to be happy about it. I would pass the MCS test but I am not prepared to make them look at that!

I would quite happily have the heat pump at the front of my house away from any neighbours, but the council would never allow it.

The house opposite, across the road, has a Daikin air conditioning unit on the side of their house at first floor level facing the road, clearly visible to everybody. I don't care about it of course, it's harmless.