Air Source Heat Pump - Planning permission required!

matt_drummer

MultiFuelBurner said:

As I recall it that was karma for all the things he said about the local villagers in season 1. What started off with Clarkson being Clarkson and taking the pee out of everyone ended up ruining everything he wanted to do in season 2.

The council and local.villagers were wrong of course but this was their revenge.

The Councillors are supposed to be professional and impartial, they are local government, what's the point in it all if they can take revenge on somebody they don't like.

MultiFuelBurner

matt_drummer said:

MultiFuelBurner said:

As I recall it that was karma for all the things he said about the local villagers in season 1. What started off with Clarkson being Clarkson and taking the pee out of everyone ended up ruining everything he wanted to do in season 2.

The council and local.villagers were wrong of course but this was their revenge.

The Councillors are supposed to be professional and impartial, they are local government, what's the point in it all if they can take revenge on somebody they don't like.

Oh don't be so naive. Having lived in a village with a local plan drafted over many bottles of red wine to stop over development. Been involved in countless battles against ridiculous local planning proposals I can say almost half the issues were who you knew not what you knew and about how you introduced the changes and to whom.

How we chuckled during season 2 when we could see it all unfolding, he knew he had to win over the local people who he called morons. They smiled to his face, laughed at his jokes, accepted his cheese and wine and under their breaths as he left muttered the words "banker"

Bet he wished he hadn't called them morons now.

Obviously this won't affect your heat pump unless the chief planning officer for Ipswich lives next door😂😂

ispookie666

House elevation is necessary to check how the unit will impact the appearance of the building; certain parts of the house are out of bounds for any fixtures on the outside wall.  I used the plans from the old extension PP document, carbon-copied them, and added a scaled version of the outdoor unit.  

I can understand the logic of the PP and the fallacy of the same.

matt_drummer

ispookie666 said:

House elevation is necessary to check how the unit will impact the appearance of the building; certain parts of the house are out of bounds for any fixtures on the outside wall.  I used the plans from the old extension PP document, carbon-copied them, and added a scaled version of the outdoor unit.  

I can understand the logic of the PP and the fallacy of the same.

Whilst I know why they are asking about what it looks like, the fact is, if I hadn't failed the MCS noise test by half a decibel I wouldn't have to get permission for my intended location.

But, for noise, they are now going to make a judgement on the appearance as well.

It's in my garden, out of sight to all but one window..

They can't be this obtuse (to quote one of my favourite films), they know exactly what an air source heat pump looks like.

I may be wrong, but I think I can install an oil fired boiler in the same place and I won't need planning permission, it's madness.

Even madder (if that's a word) is if I put it on the wall three meters in the air above my proposed location I wouldn't need planning permission, I would pass the MCS noise test. It would look worse and be noisier. It is the fact that it is next to my conservatory, so I have three reflective surfaces, that I fail the noise test.

It doesn't seem right to me.

Reed_Richards

What's equally not right is that you have engaged an installer who installs a pointlessly noisy heat pump when quieter ones are available.  You really really don't need hot water at 60 C, except possibly for 5 minutes once a week, and using an immersion heater to briefly boost 50 C up to 60 C isn't going to break the bank.  The reason it is at its noisiest making hot water really hot is because it will be working harder then then it is ever asked to do otherwise.  Heat pumps have a limited range of modulation and a heat pump that is more powerful than you need will cycle more in milder weather.  This may lead to reduced efficiency so you may be getting a heat pump that is less efficient than it could be, all for the sake of making your hot water hotter than is safe to use.       

matt_drummer

Reed_Richards said:

What's equally not right is that you have engaged an installer who installs a pointlessly noisy heat pump when quieter ones are available.  You really really don't need hot water at 60 C, except possibly for 5 minutes once a week, and using an immersion heater to briefly boost 50 C up to 60 C isn't going to break the bank.  The reason it is at its noisiest making hot water really hot is because it will be working harder then then it is ever asked to do otherwise.  Heat pumps have a limited range of modulation and a heat pump that is more powerful than you need will cycle more in milder weather.  This may lead to reduced efficiency so you may be getting a heat pump that is less efficient than it could be, all for the sake of making your hot water hotter than is safe to use.       

I don't actually know why it is a 62dB heat pump, I was guessing that it would be at it's noisiest when heating to the higher temperature.

The manual just says it is 62dB, the whole range is rated at 62dB whether to go for the smallest or the largest model.

I doubt it will any noisier than any other heat pump in real life, Octopus Energy hace chosen them for some reason, I doubt they want to get a reputation for noisy heat pump installations, do you?

A heat pump that is more powerful than I need has not been chosen.

Vaillant heat pumps can heat hot water to 70c.

I am not proposing to heat my hot water to 60c, I am pretty sure that I never said I was, I just said that the heat pump is capable of it and wouldn't rely on an immersion heater to carry out a legionella cycle.


It's a Daikin Altherma 3 High Capacity Monobloc

The make them in 9Kw, 11Kw, 14Kw and 16Kw models.

I am having the 9Kw model, the smallest, they all have a noise sound level of 62dBA

matt_drummer

Reed_Richards said:

What's equally not right is that you have engaged an installer who installs a pointlessly noisy heat pump when quieter ones are available.  You really really don't need hot water at 60 C, except possibly for 5 minutes once a week, and using an immersion heater to briefly boost 50 C up to 60 C isn't going to break the bank.  The reason it is at its noisiest making hot water really hot is because it will be working harder then then it is ever asked to do otherwise.  Heat pumps have a limited range of modulation and a heat pump that is more powerful than you need will cycle more in milder weather.  This may lead to reduced efficiency so you may be getting a heat pump that is less efficient than it could be, all for the sake of making your hot water hotter than is safe to use.       

To put this pointlessly noisy heat pump into perspective I have just tested five oil fired boilers at our small office complex.

They are all domestic sized boilers heating offices in converted barns.

The background noise level averages 58dB at the moment.

The noise measured 1 metre from each of the flues range between 75dB and 79dB.

A heat pump with a maximum noise of 62dB is not noisy compared to the fossil fueled alternatives.

I don't know why the noise test is so stringent for an ASHP when they are significantly quieter than what they are replacing.

Mstty

Even though we have one they do look ugly as well so a good placement is also key. Not just to the advantage of orientation of the property owner.

I can see why planning may have stiffened up in some areas but Octopus choice of partner in Daikin may come back to bite them with those dB levels.

Reed_Richards

The issue of planning permission for heat pumps is grossly unfair in placing restrictions on heat pumps that don't apply to gas or oil boilers.  No doubt about that!  But please don't get so fixated on the issue of planning permission that you lose sight of the bigger picture.  This is a fine mess that Octopus have gotten you into by dealing with only one heat pump supplier.  Other quieter ASHPs are available.   

matt_drummer

Mstty said:

Even though we have one they do look ugly as well so a good placement is also key. Not just to the advantage of orientation of the property owner.

I can see why planning may have stiffened up in some areas but Octopus choice of partner in Daikin may come back to bite them with those dB levels.

I have not chosen a placement to suit me or make installation easier and cheaper, it's going in the only place available at ground level. I could have had it high up on the wall, that would be worse, for my neighbours I suspect

I think ugly is a bit of a strong word, it's just a box.

I think some people are missing the point about the noise, the Daikin heat pump is not guaranteed to be noisier that any other heat pump.

The quoted noise level is the maximum that it can make, not what it will make in my location.

I don't know for sure, but I suspect the maximum noise level quoted is higher because it is capable of working in more extreme environments than some other heat pumps, it works down to -25c and if that is when it is working hardest, that is when it will make the most noise.

Working at 0c, for example, it may well be quieter than other heat pumps.

It is is not necessarily a noisy heat pump.

The problem w is that you have to use the maximum number is the noise calculation, even if it will never be that loud.