Air Source Heat Pump - Planning permission required!

matt_drummer

macman said:

matt_drummer said:

The strange thing about planning laws is that the neighbours gas boiler flue is 2 meters from our and our other neighbours boundary, it's noisier than the heat pump will be but no planning permission is required.

Of course, I don't have a problem with the neighbour's boiler and would never complain about it.

It just seems our planning laws are a bit inconsistent.

The difference is presumably that a gas boiler will not be running for long periods at full bore.  An ASHP will be.

That may be true, but not necessarily.

There are plenty of people who come here with gas boilers that run continuously because they cannot achieve their desired room temperatures for a variety of reasons.

If my heat pump runs flat out for long periods of time then me and Octopus Energy have got our calculations seriously wrong.

In my case, my heat pump is 10 metres from my boundary, their gas boiler flue is only 1 metre from my boundary.

matt_drummer

Reed_Richards said:

I don't think my (LG) heat pump will get the DHW above 50 C without invoking the aid of the immersion heater; that's certainly the way it is set-up at present.  Octopus seem to be shooting themselves and you in the foot by supplying a heat pump that makes most noise doing something you would never want it to do.  

You certainly need planning permission to install more than one heat pump so I don't think @70sbudgie 's suggestion would get you anywhere.  

The current Vaillant heat pumps heat the DHW to 70c, it avoids using an immersion heater for a Legionalla cycle.

I would prefer not to use an immersion heater for obvious reasons.

Strictly speaking, and to obey the law, you do need planning permission for more than one heat pump, and even for one if you use it for cooling.

But, after four years and no complaints, if you have installed more than one heat pump or a heat pump that cools, then they can stay, there's a name for the rule that I can't remember right now.

My immediate problem is that I need to get planning permission before Octopus will install the heat pump for my heating and DHW.

I will remove the other heat pumps for the time being and deal with that problem later, or just forget it.

I will probably need to take some professional advice and/or try to speak to someone at the council.



I thank you for your input, it's always appreciated.

matt_drummer

tacpot12 said:

Have you reviewed the calculation and considered what you can do to get below 42dB? 

This video tells you how to do the calculation and suggests that there are a variety of ways in which you might get the sound level below the level at which you need planning permission, e.g. by setting a lower design temperature (and increasing the size of pipes/radiators accordingly): https://youtu.be/tXO3AaJcb-0

I watched the video, thank you.

I love Heat Geeks and admire what they are doing.

But I think he is wrong in this respect.

Although I can design my system to run at lower flow temperatures and therefore quieter, that doesn't stop me or anybody else changing it later.

The MCS test is very clear that you must use the maximum noise output quoted by the manufacturer.

matt_drummer

I have submitted a planning application this morning, I did it myself, we'll see what happens.

ispookie666

@macman intermittent working is a bit more problematic. In the noise assessment survey they add 3dB for this.  
@matt_drummer I hope this goes smoothly.  I do have to agree that the Heat geeks video is very misleading 

matt_drummer

matt_drummer said:

I have submitted a planning application this morning, I did it myself, we'll see what happens.

I have heard from the council this morning.

They want scale elevational drawings of my house with and without the heat pump.

They also want to know what the heat pump will look like. (so because I have failed the MCS noise test, not only is the volume at my boundary an issue, it's appearance now needs to be approved - I don't really see the logic in that?)

Finally they require a noise and vibration assessment carried out by a suitably qualified acoustician.


Awesome!


The good news is that Octopus say they will deal with all of this once I accept their quote.


Obviously, I have just accepted their quote.

MattMattMattUK

matt_drummer said:

They also want to know what the heat pump will look like. (so because I have failed the MCS noise test, not only is the volume at my boundary an issue, it's appearance now needs to be approved - I don't really see the logic in that?)

There is no logic in a lot of planning regulations, they are a collection of things that have accumulated over time, parts of which have been superseded, other parts which have not, combined with vested interests and a government which sees no imperative to improve them. 

matt_drummer

MattMattMattUK said:

matt_drummer said:

They also want to know what the heat pump will look like. (so because I have failed the MCS noise test, not only is the volume at my boundary an issue, it's appearance now needs to be approved - I don't really see the logic in that?)

There is no logic in a lot of planning regulations, they are a collection of things that have accumulated over time, parts of which have been superseded, other parts which have not, combined with vested interests and a government which sees no imperative to improve them. 

The planning permission is required because my proposed heat pump and it's location results in a noise level at my neighbours property that is more the 2dB over an arbitary background noise level of 40dB.

I checked the background noise at my boundary at 05.00 this morning, at no point did it drop below 45dB.

I live within 1/2 mile of the centre of Ipswich, i will never be less than 45dB.

My heat pump at maximum volume will be 42.50dB at my boundary, I am not an expert, but I would assume that as it is quieter than the background noise level it will be inaudible?

How exceeding a noise level now gives the council the right to examine the appearance of my heat pump is beyond me.

It does not break any other rules, such as size, if it had I would have applied for planning permission because it's volume exceeded 0.60 m3

What it looks like is irrelevant, but it would seem that they could deny planning permission if they don't like what it looks like, or maybe if my neighbours don't like the look of it.

There was a long thread on this site a few years ago about a couple who's view of the world had been destroyed by a neighbours air conditioning unit that was visible from every window of their house, if I remember, the wife was in tears over it!

MattMattMattUK

matt_drummer said:

MattMattMattUK said:

matt_drummer said:

They also want to know what the heat pump will look like. (so because I have failed the MCS noise test, not only is the volume at my boundary an issue, it's appearance now needs to be approved - I don't really see the logic in that?)

There is no logic in a lot of planning regulations, they are a collection of things that have accumulated over time, parts of which have been superseded, other parts which have not, combined with vested interests and a government which sees no imperative to improve them. 

The planning permission is required because my proposed heat pump and it's location results in a noise level at my neighbours property that is more the 2dB over an arbitary background noise level of 40dB.

I checked the background noise at my boundary at 05.00 this morning, at no point did it drop below 45dB.

I live within 1/2 mile of the centre of Ipswich, i will never be less than 45dB.

My heat pump at maximum volume will be 42.50dB at my boundary, I am not an expert, but I would assume that as it is quieter than the background noise level it will be inaudible?

It would not be inaudible, one can hear things that are quieter than background noise, provided that the difference is not too much, or they do not mask each other in pitch, an an example a high pitched coil whine would be noticeable even if the background noise was considerably louder, as would potentially vibration noise. That being said with the general acoustics of a heat pump I would be surprised if anyone could pick it out over background noise.

matt_drummer said:

How exceeding a noise level now gives the council the right to examine the appearance of my heat pump is beyond me.

Once it hits the requirement for planning it falls outside of exemptions and permitted development and then it has to be treated as a full planning application.

matt_drummer said:

It does not break any other rules, such as size, if it had I would have applied for planning permission because it's volume exceeded 0.60 m3

What it looks like is irrelevant, but it would seem that they could deny planning permission if they don't like what it looks like, or maybe if my neighbours don't like the look of it.

There was a long thread on this site a few years ago about a couple who's view of the world had been destroyed by a neighbours air conditioning unit that was visible from every window of their house, if I remember, the wife was in tears over it!

I think I remember the same thread, she seemed distraught at the idea that she might ever have to look at it, but I think nearly everyone involved felt it was a vast overreaction on her part. 

matt_drummer

MattMattMattUK said:

Once it hits the requirement for planning it falls outside of exemptions and permitted development and then it has to be treated as a full planning application.

Only because that is how it is set up by our leaders.

I measured the volume from my own gas boiler flue and the oil boiler flue at work, they both exceeded 70dB at 1 metre, noisier than the heat pump by some way.

I accept that I have to do this, I'm not moaning (well, just a little!) but on a serious note, I find it very difficult to see how many homes will ever be able to have a heat pump installed.

I don't really understand why the government are encouraging environmentally friendly heating solutions without having ensured that people can actually do it.

If I have to employ professionals to deal with this it will be half the cost of the heat pump installation, and even then I have no guarantee that planning permission will be granted.