Octopus Agile

MP1995

Weather,power demand and geopolitical issue to name but a few. It all affects energy prices.

The July tracker formula is the final nail in the coffin for most. All the risk and  maybe 10% cheaper over a year.

If Agile follows suit my best alternative is cosy. (Always have a plan B and a plan C and know what it will cost you)

Qyburn

Telegraph_Sam said:

On the increasingly rare days/nights when I've been able to get Compare to perform it has shown me on Tracker to be slightly ahead of Agile, contrary to my expections.

The "octoprice" web page shows us better off with Tracker. Looking at Jan to May this year, one month Agile would have saved £1, one month they were the same, the other month Agile would have cost more.

Slinky

We have solar and batteries. Our octoprice comparison shows Agile saves us £140 across the year and Tracker saves £94 against variable tariff.

Telegraph_Sam

@Slinky: So what does Agile save you against Tracker? Or v.v.
With / without EV's and/or other high energy load shift-able devices?
Is Octoprice the same as "Compare" and/or give similar results?

NedS

MP1995 said:

Weather,power demand and geopolitical issue to name but a few. It all affects energy prices.

The July tracker formula is the final nail in the coffin for most. All the risk and  maybe 10% cheaper over a year.

If Agile follows suit my best alternative is cosy. (Always have a plan B and a plan C and know what it will cost you)

I have been evaluating the new updated Cosy tariff since they changed the rates and added another 2h low priced period 10pm-midnight.

For those with large batteries, it seems like a no-brainer as they should be able to fill their boots on the 11p cheap slots and never need to import on the daily rate or peak rate.

For those without batteries, it's a lot more difficult to compare with Agile, as our usage is time-shifted based on 30min pricing, which may be different between the two tariffs. In summer we would be unable to take advantage of the afternoon cheap rate slot, as first we would need to use the 3kW of solar we are generating, which has a value of 15p if exported. The other two slots would only receive minimal usage.

In autumn and spring Cosy could work if we can use the cheap slots to put sufficient heat into the house in those 8 hours, and heat the DHW.

Winter looks a lot more challenging, as ASHPs like to run low and slow 24/7 and are not really designed to ramp up for 8h when prices are cheap and then switch off during peak periods, so at best we may turn the heating off (or down) between 4-7pm, but that still requires running for 13h at the standard daily rate and 8h at cheap rate so likely cheaper than Agile for 8h per day and more expensive for 13h per day, with both having a peak rate slot 4-7pm to be avoided.

As I said, for those with large batteries, they could potentially run at 11p/kWh

matt_drummer

NedS said:

MP1995 said:

Weather,power demand and geopolitical issue to name but a few. It all affects energy prices.

The July tracker formula is the final nail in the coffin for most. All the risk and  maybe 10% cheaper over a year.

If Agile follows suit my best alternative is cosy. (Always have a plan B and a plan C and know what it will cost you)

I have been evaluating the new updated Cosy tariff since they changed the rates and added another 2h low priced period 10pm-midnight.

For those with large batteries, it seems like a no-brainer as they should be able to fill their boots on the 11p cheap slots and never need to import on the daily rate or peak rate.

For those without batteries, it's a lot more difficult to compare with Agile, as our usage is time-shifted based on 30min pricing, which may be different between the two tariffs. In summer we would be unable to take advantage of the afternoon cheap rate slot, as first we would need to use the 3kW of solar we are generating, which has a value of 15p if exported. The other two slots would only receive minimal usage.

In autumn and spring Cosy could work if we can use the cheap slots to put sufficient heat into the house in those 8 hours, and heat the DHW.

Winter looks a lot more challenging, as ASHPs like to run low and slow 24/7 and are not really designed to ramp up for 8h when prices are cheap and then switch off during peak periods, so at best we may turn the heating off (or down) between 4-7pm, but that still requires running for 13h at the standard daily rate and 8h at cheap rate so likely cheaper than Agile for 8h per day and more expensive for 13h per day, with both having a peak rate slot 4-7pm to be avoided.

As I said, for those with large batteries, they could potentially run at 11p/kWh

I have 38 kWh of usable battery storage, 13.60 kW of solar panels and a heat pump. The cosy tariff with 15p per kWh export is perfect for me. I will rarely import at over 11p per kWh and on an annual basis I pay nothing.

My heat pump is very efficient and I just run it continuously. This means it runs at somewhere between 400W and 600W most of the time and minimises imports outside the cheap periods.

Octopus Cosy tariff is perfect for me and our house.

I really don't think there is any way to run cheaper. Obviously I am ignoring the cost of the stuff to make it possible but I have spent the money and that is that!

NedS

matt_drummer said:

NedS said:

MP1995 said:

Weather,power demand and geopolitical issue to name but a few. It all affects energy prices.

The July tracker formula is the final nail in the coffin for most. All the risk and  maybe 10% cheaper over a year.

If Agile follows suit my best alternative is cosy. (Always have a plan B and a plan C and know what it will cost you)

I have been evaluating the new updated Cosy tariff since they changed the rates and added another 2h low priced period 10pm-midnight.

For those with large batteries, it seems like a no-brainer as they should be able to fill their boots on the 11p cheap slots and never need to import on the daily rate or peak rate.

For those without batteries, it's a lot more difficult to compare with Agile, as our usage is time-shifted based on 30min pricing, which may be different between the two tariffs. In summer we would be unable to take advantage of the afternoon cheap rate slot, as first we would need to use the 3kW of solar we are generating, which has a value of 15p if exported. The other two slots would only receive minimal usage.

In autumn and spring Cosy could work if we can use the cheap slots to put sufficient heat into the house in those 8 hours, and heat the DHW.

Winter looks a lot more challenging, as ASHPs like to run low and slow 24/7 and are not really designed to ramp up for 8h when prices are cheap and then switch off during peak periods, so at best we may turn the heating off (or down) between 4-7pm, but that still requires running for 13h at the standard daily rate and 8h at cheap rate so likely cheaper than Agile for 8h per day and more expensive for 13h per day, with both having a peak rate slot 4-7pm to be avoided.

As I said, for those with large batteries, they could potentially run at 11p/kWh

I have 38 kWh of usable battery storage, 13.60 kW of solar panels and a heat pump. The cosy tariff with 15p per kWh export is perfect for me. I will rarely import at over 11p per kWh and on an annual basis I pay nothing.

My heat pump is very efficient and I just run it continuously. This means it runs at somewhere between 400W and 600W most of the time and minimises imports outside the cheap periods.

Octopus Cosy tariff is perfect for me and our house.

I really don't think there is any way to run cheaper. Obviously I am ignoring the cost of the stuff to make it possible but I have spent the money and that is that!

Exactly Matt, large batteries totally work in your favour.

Can I ask - what is your heat loss figure, and what is the minimum battery size you think you would need to see you through to the next cheap Cosy slot?

I'm guessing the fact your ASHP is only drawing 400-600W helps - mine draws 1kW minimum and maybe up to 2kW in Winter (crudely calculated as 1kW input with a COP of 3 in winter gives 3kW output, and our heat loss is around 6-7kW). We will find out in our first winter!

With 6h gaps between the cheap Cosy slots, I think I'd need a 13kW battery as a minimum, recharging 3 times per day to see me through, and even then I suspect I'd be drawing from the grid outside of the cheap slots. Plus with a 3.6kW inverter, I'd only be able to put 10.8kW into the battery in the 3h cheap slots, so would likely need a bigger inverter to fully utilise a battery over 10kW. Maybe a 9-10kW battery and 3.6kW inverter would do the job 90% of the time and we can hope for a mild winter

Slinky

Telegraph_Sam said:

@Slinky: So what does Agile save you against Tracker? Or v.v.
With / without EV's and/or other high energy load shift-able devices?
Is Octoprice the same as "Compare" and/or give similar results?

Well I'd say take the two figures apart and it gives us a saving of £46 being on Agile rather than Tracker.  We're very low users though. We were on Tracker last winter, not sure how things will work out across the coming winter where we will obviously need to charge our batteries outside off peak to get us across the expensive slots. We would be able to go back to Tracker in November, but I'm not sure it would be worth it for us now with increased Tracker rates.

No EVs, heating is gas.  Just checked our last bill, they estimate our annual bill to be £153 for electric and £543 for gas. Not bad for a 4 bed 1960s house.

Daft thing is they think our DD should bve £133.09 a month. I'm currently £315 in credit with about £70 of Octopoints from working the import/export during the savings sessions across the winter.  DD is currently set by me at £5

matt_drummer

NedS said:

matt_drummer said:

NedS said:

MP1995 said:

Weather,power demand and geopolitical issue to name but a few. It all affects energy prices.

The July tracker formula is the final nail in the coffin for most. All the risk and  maybe 10% cheaper over a year.

If Agile follows suit my best alternative is cosy. (Always have a plan B and a plan C and know what it will cost you)

I have been evaluating the new updated Cosy tariff since they changed the rates and added another 2h low priced period 10pm-midnight.

For those with large batteries, it seems like a no-brainer as they should be able to fill their boots on the 11p cheap slots and never need to import on the daily rate or peak rate.

For those without batteries, it's a lot more difficult to compare with Agile, as our usage is time-shifted based on 30min pricing, which may be different between the two tariffs. In summer we would be unable to take advantage of the afternoon cheap rate slot, as first we would need to use the 3kW of solar we are generating, which has a value of 15p if exported. The other two slots would only receive minimal usage.

In autumn and spring Cosy could work if we can use the cheap slots to put sufficient heat into the house in those 8 hours, and heat the DHW.

Winter looks a lot more challenging, as ASHPs like to run low and slow 24/7 and are not really designed to ramp up for 8h when prices are cheap and then switch off during peak periods, so at best we may turn the heating off (or down) between 4-7pm, but that still requires running for 13h at the standard daily rate and 8h at cheap rate so likely cheaper than Agile for 8h per day and more expensive for 13h per day, with both having a peak rate slot 4-7pm to be avoided.

As I said, for those with large batteries, they could potentially run at 11p/kWh

I have 38 kWh of usable battery storage, 13.60 kW of solar panels and a heat pump. The cosy tariff with 15p per kWh export is perfect for me. I will rarely import at over 11p per kWh and on an annual basis I pay nothing.

My heat pump is very efficient and I just run it continuously. This means it runs at somewhere between 400W and 600W most of the time and minimises imports outside the cheap periods.

Octopus Cosy tariff is perfect for me and our house.

I really don't think there is any way to run cheaper. Obviously I am ignoring the cost of the stuff to make it possible but I have spent the money and that is that!

Exactly Matt, large batteries totally work in your favour.

Can I ask - what is your heat loss figure, and what is the minimum battery size you think you would need to see you through to the next cheap Cosy slot?

I'm guessing the fact your ASHP is only drawing 400-600W helps - mine draws 1kW minimum and maybe up to 2kW in Winter (crudely calculated as 1kW input with a COP of 3 in winter gives 3kW output, and our heat loss is around 6-7kW). We will find out in our first winter!

With 6h gaps between the cheap Cosy slots, I think I'd need a 13kW battery as a minimum, recharging 3 times per day to see me through, and even then I suspect I'd be drawing from the grid outside of the cheap slots. Plus with a 3.6kW inverter, I'd only be able to put 10.8kW into the battery in the 3h cheap slots, so would likely need a bigger inverter to fully utilise a battery over 10kW. Maybe a 9-10kW battery and 3.6kW inverter would do the job 90% of the time and we can hope for a mild winter

It is my only downside.

I need GivEnergy to come out with a dual AC inverter setup which they keep promising.

My heat loss is around 4kW at -3c

I liked my 9kW Daikin but the minimum input of 900W was a problem, too much heat even at this input and turning it off used more power during the restart, over 2kWh at times and then with other stuff going I exceed what the inverter can supply and I have to import at more expensive rates. It is just better to leave the heat pump running at around 500W to minimise grid import.

At worst I would think I need half of what I have, maybe two 9.5 kWh batteries would suffice.

But things have changed since I installed them, I think I maybe needed three to get through the dullest days in December with the big heat pump.

I get a COP of over 5 most days now. 

I got my replacement heat pump in February and the software was only updated in May so I haven't run a really cold day under optimum conditions.

I would expect my COP for heating to be close to 4 on the worst days, maybe a little less on a really bad day.

I haven't thought about it too much but with 8 hours at 11p I can get 25kWh into the batteries and my average in December for solar is 6kWh per day. With 38kWh of battery I probably have enough to get through two or three days of virtual total darkness before I consume more than I can import in the cheap slots.

I don't get too worked up about it though, it is what it is and I will import outside the cheap slots at times. Even if I import in the peak period I don't really care too much, I can't live around electricity prices.

Having two AC inverters would make things much better as we would rarely exceed what one inverter can do in regards to supplying the house and I would be able to charge at double the rate I can now, I would have full batteries every day at 11p per kWh or less.

It is a balance between cost of hardware and the potential returns.

I only did what I did because I could and I wanted to be a net annual exporter of electricity. It was a personal goal and I am lucky in having a wife who supports me.

matt_drummer

NedS said:

matt_drummer said:

NedS said:

MP1995 said:

Weather,power demand and geopolitical issue to name but a few. It all affects energy prices.

The July tracker formula is the final nail in the coffin for most. All the risk and  maybe 10% cheaper over a year.

If Agile follows suit my best alternative is cosy. (Always have a plan B and a plan C and know what it will cost you)

I have been evaluating the new updated Cosy tariff since they changed the rates and added another 2h low priced period 10pm-midnight.

For those with large batteries, it seems like a no-brainer as they should be able to fill their boots on the 11p cheap slots and never need to import on the daily rate or peak rate.

For those without batteries, it's a lot more difficult to compare with Agile, as our usage is time-shifted based on 30min pricing, which may be different between the two tariffs. In summer we would be unable to take advantage of the afternoon cheap rate slot, as first we would need to use the 3kW of solar we are generating, which has a value of 15p if exported. The other two slots would only receive minimal usage.

In autumn and spring Cosy could work if we can use the cheap slots to put sufficient heat into the house in those 8 hours, and heat the DHW.

Winter looks a lot more challenging, as ASHPs like to run low and slow 24/7 and are not really designed to ramp up for 8h when prices are cheap and then switch off during peak periods, so at best we may turn the heating off (or down) between 4-7pm, but that still requires running for 13h at the standard daily rate and 8h at cheap rate so likely cheaper than Agile for 8h per day and more expensive for 13h per day, with both having a peak rate slot 4-7pm to be avoided.

As I said, for those with large batteries, they could potentially run at 11p/kWh

I have 38 kWh of usable battery storage, 13.60 kW of solar panels and a heat pump. The cosy tariff with 15p per kWh export is perfect for me. I will rarely import at over 11p per kWh and on an annual basis I pay nothing.

My heat pump is very efficient and I just run it continuously. This means it runs at somewhere between 400W and 600W most of the time and minimises imports outside the cheap periods.

Octopus Cosy tariff is perfect for me and our house.

I really don't think there is any way to run cheaper. Obviously I am ignoring the cost of the stuff to make it possible but I have spent the money and that is that!

Exactly Matt, large batteries totally work in your favour.

Can I ask - what is your heat loss figure, and what is the minimum battery size you think you would need to see you through to the next cheap Cosy slot?

I'm guessing the fact your ASHP is only drawing 400-600W helps - mine draws 1kW minimum and maybe up to 2kW in Winter (crudely calculated as 1kW input with a COP of 3 in winter gives 3kW output, and our heat loss is around 6-7kW). We will find out in our first winter!

With 6h gaps between the cheap Cosy slots, I think I'd need a 13kW battery as a minimum, recharging 3 times per day to see me through, and even then I suspect I'd be drawing from the grid outside of the cheap slots. Plus with a 3.6kW inverter, I'd only be able to put 10.8kW into the battery in the 3h cheap slots, so would likely need a bigger inverter to fully utilise a battery over 10kW. Maybe a 9-10kW battery and 3.6kW inverter would do the job 90% of the time and we can hope for a mild winter

I think you need to remember that your heat pump would not be running from the batteries for 8 hours a day. Whilst your batteries are charging at the maximum rate possible you heat pump is also drawing its power at the cheap rate and not utilising the batteries.

As Cosy Octopus is now,  the batteries and solar only have to support the heat pump for 16 hours a day.

So, maybe on a bad day, I need the batteries to supply 16 kWh for the heat pump and whatever the rest of the house needs outside of the cheap slots. Perhaps 25 kWh so three batteries would suffice assuming no solar. With 6 Kwh a day on average from solar it is down to 19 kWh from the batteries so I could in theory make do with half of what I have and still run entirely from the cheapest rate. But, it probably won't always be enough

I am often tempted by Agile just for the fun of it, but I think it requires more attention that I am prepared to commit to.