Average speed camera zone with no signage

alleycat`

Hi All,

Recently some roadworks near to where i live have had average speed cameras installed (Yellow multi lane coverage types). The road works have clearly defined 70 to 50mph to 30mph change in speed. The cameras are all within the 30mph zone. So far so normal.  What i can't get my head around is that at no point is there any signage for average speed cameras, box brownie type signs or anything to say the cameras are not currently in use. This is the same in both directions. The zone does have "repeater" speed signs (although only on one side) but lacks any speed camera signage at all.

I don't have any issue with the existence of the cameras but is the installation actually "legal" from the standpoint of usability for prosecution?

Ebe_Scrooge

Taken from this website https://www.westyorkshire.police.uk/ask-the-police/question/Q642

"There is nothing in law that states that any speed camera device, whether fixed or mobile, must be marked in any way, signed or at a particular position. There are codes of practice and best practice guides that are set by police forces themselves but these are policies rather than law."

I think speed cameras are often signed kind of as a "courtesy", but there's no law that says they have to be.  And of course, the very signs themselves probably help to stop people speeding, which I guess is a good thing.  But legally, they're not a requirement.

Car_54

Ebe_Scrooge said:

Taken from this website https://www.westyorkshire.police.uk/ask-the-police/question/Q642

"There is nothing in law that states that any speed camera device, whether fixed or mobile, must be marked in any way, signed or at a particular position. There are codes of practice and best practice guides that are set by police forces themselves but these are policies rather than law."

The first sentence is absolutely correct - no signs are ever needed.
The second is a bit puzzling. Signs are not the responsibility of the police, so why would they need codes of practice etc.?

Ebe_Scrooge

Car_54 said:

Ebe_Scrooge said:

Taken from this website https://www.westyorkshire.police.uk/ask-the-police/question/Q642

"There is nothing in law that states that any speed camera device, whether fixed or mobile, must be marked in any way, signed or at a particular position. There are codes of practice and best practice guides that are set by police forces themselves but these are policies rather than law."

The first sentence is absolutely correct - no signs are ever needed.
The second is a bit puzzling. Signs are not the responsibility of the police, so why would they need codes of practice etc.?

That's a very fair point, actually.  Given that the source is a legitimate police website rather than some random tabloid newspaper or Facebook or whatever, one would hope that the information could be relied upon!  Would the police "advise" the council/highways authority as to whether they thought signage should or shouldn't be provided in a particular location?  No idea, just speculating.

Grey_Critic

Does seem that many roads are outfitted with cameras so the obvious thing to do is not speed.

On the basis that the technology behind many of the cameras even knowing where they are does not matter. They can probably operate in Average Speed Mode if required and so save time/money installing just because there are road works.

diystarter7

Ebe_Scrooge said:

Car_54 said:

Ebe_Scrooge said:

Taken from this website https://www.westyorkshire.police.uk/ask-the-police/question/Q642

"There is nothing in law that states that any speed camera device, whether fixed or mobile, must be marked in any way, signed or at a particular position. There are codes of practice and best practice guides that are set by police forces themselves but these are policies rather than law."

The first sentence is absolutely correct - no signs are ever needed.
The second is a bit puzzling. Signs are not the responsibility of the police, so why would they need codes of practice etc.?

That's a very fair point, actually.  Given that the source is a legitimate police website rather than some random tabloid newspaper or Facebook or whatever, one would hope that the information could be relied upon!  Would the police "advise" the council/highways authority as to whether they thought signage should or shouldn't be provided in a particular location?  No idea, just speculating.

Hi

Was there not the case of the motorway gantry cams being painted in grey initially ie same colour as the gantry and then they were forced to paint them yellow. Why was that the case?

I vaugley recall reading someone getting off with speeding as their was no warning - I could be wrong but about 90+% sure

Thanks

Car_54

Ebe_Scrooge said:

Car_54 said:

Ebe_Scrooge said:

Taken from this website https://www.westyorkshire.police.uk/ask-the-police/question/Q642

"There is nothing in law that states that any speed camera device, whether fixed or mobile, must be marked in any way, signed or at a particular position. There are codes of practice and best practice guides that are set by police forces themselves but these are policies rather than law."

The first sentence is absolutely correct - no signs are ever needed.
The second is a bit puzzling. Signs are not the responsibility of the police, so why would they need codes of practice etc.?

That's a very fair point, actually.  Given that the source is a legitimate police website rather than some random tabloid newspaper or Facebook or whatever, one would hope that the information could be relied upon!  Would the police "advise" the council/highways authority as to whether they thought signage should or shouldn't be provided in a particular location?  No idea, just speculating.

It may be a legit police website, but I suspect the content is delegated pretty far down the food chain, possibly even to some spotty youth in the IT department. And remember the old maxim - if you want legal advice, don't ask a policeman!

The police certainly have an input to decisions on speed limits, but once the limit is decided the signage is generally prescribed by law.

diystarter7

diystarter7 said:

Ebe_Scrooge said:

Car_54 said:

Ebe_Scrooge said:

Taken from this website https://www.westyorkshire.police.uk/ask-the-police/question/Q642

"There is nothing in law that states that any speed camera device, whether fixed or mobile, must be marked in any way, signed or at a particular position. There are codes of practice and best practice guides that are set by police forces themselves but these are policies rather than law."

The first sentence is absolutely correct - no signs are ever needed.
The second is a bit puzzling. Signs are not the responsibility of the police, so why would they need codes of practice etc.?

That's a very fair point, actually.  Given that the source is a legitimate police website rather than some random tabloid newspaper or Facebook or whatever, one would hope that the information could be relied upon!  Would the police "advise" the council/highways authority as to whether they thought signage should or shouldn't be provided in a particular location?  No idea, just speculating.

Hi

Was there not the case of the motorway gantry cams being painted in grey initially ie same colour as the gantry and then they were forced to paint them yellow. Why was that the case?

I vaugley recall reading someone getting off with speeding as their was no warning - I could be wrong but about 90+% sure

Thanks

Hi

Just done my own research and I was right re grey cams being made to paint them yellow and you do need signs otherwise the AA state, "motorists feel they are being conned."

Thnaks

Ebe_Scrooge

diystarter7 said:

diystarter7 said:

Ebe_Scrooge said:

Car_54 said:

Ebe_Scrooge said:

Taken from this website https://www.westyorkshire.police.uk/ask-the-police/question/Q642

"There is nothing in law that states that any speed camera device, whether fixed or mobile, must be marked in any way, signed or at a particular position. There are codes of practice and best practice guides that are set by police forces themselves but these are policies rather than law."

The first sentence is absolutely correct - no signs are ever needed.
The second is a bit puzzling. Signs are not the responsibility of the police, so why would they need codes of practice etc.?

That's a very fair point, actually.  Given that the source is a legitimate police website rather than some random tabloid newspaper or Facebook or whatever, one would hope that the information could be relied upon!  Would the police "advise" the council/highways authority as to whether they thought signage should or shouldn't be provided in a particular location?  No idea, just speculating.

Hi

Was there not the case of the motorway gantry cams being painted in grey initially ie same colour as the gantry and then they were forced to paint them yellow. Why was that the case?

I vaugley recall reading someone getting off with speeding as their was no warning - I could be wrong but about 90+% sure

Thanks

Hi

Just done my own research and I was right re grey cams being made to paint them yellow and you do need signs otherwise the AA state, "motorists feel they are being conned."

Thnaks

I don't disagree about them needing to be painted yellow, but can you point me in the direction of where it says "you do need signs"?  Every source I've managed to find says that signage is "recommended" or "advised", but that it is not a legal requirement.

alleycat`

I think this is why i asked the question. 

This particular stretch of works has been in place for many, many months now (Ouse bridge for anyone who's interested). The cameras are only a recent addition to works that haven't fundamentally changed very much.

This is probably the first time I've ever come across works where "no" warning signage is in place at all.  At night, as it's an unlit stretch of motorway, you can't see the cameras (the speed limit signs are, mostly, lit). In practice it would seem to undermine the function they're installed for (protect the workforce and to mitigate against the "assumed" lower impact resistance of the temporary barriers).

Appreciate the responses from you both.

I wonder at what point it changed (this is from 2010).

https://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/ukgwa/20100409163337/http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/roadsafety/speedmanagement/aidememoireonspeedlimitandsa4797?page=1#a1000

&

https://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/ukgwa/20100409163333/http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/roadsafety/speedmanagement/aidememoireonspeedlimitandsa4797?page=3#a1003

TadleyBaggie

diystarter7 said:

Just done my own research and I was right re grey cams being made to paint them yellow and you do need signs otherwise the AA state, "motorists feel they are being conned."

You need to research further. Way back (probably 20+ years) there was a government scheme that would allow the police get keep a percentage of the speeding fine revenue. However to do that the cameras had to be made more visible. That scheme was abandoned and there is now now revenue going to police and also no requirement to make cameras visible. What the AA say is nonsense.