Average speed camera zone with no signage

Car_54

TadleyBaggie said:

diystarter7 said:

Just done my own research and I was right re grey cams being made to paint them yellow and you do need signs otherwise the AA state, "motorists feel they are being conned."

You need to research further. Way back (probably 20+ years) there was a government scheme that would allow the police get keep a percentage of the speeding fine revenue. However to do that the cameras had to be made more visible. That scheme was abandoned and there is now now revenue going to police and also no requirement to make cameras visible. What the AA say is nonsense.

Agreed, the AA statement is rubbish.

The Blair government (yes, about 20 years ago) certainly made statements that all cameras must be conspicuous, and have warning signs, but never got round to passing a law.

AFAIK the only revenue the police currently get from speeding is a percentage of any course fees. All fines and fixed penalties go to the Treasury.

alleycat`

Actually gets murkier in my eyes and wish i'd never asked

This is from the Traffic signs manual.

8.10.6. Speed enforcement should be highly visible, with drivers made fully aware of the
presence of cameras and of the prevailing speed limit.  The camera and speed limit signs should
always be clearly visible to drivers, and not obscured by other street furniture or vegetation. The
minimum clear visibility distance for the signs should be at least that shown in Table 8‑4. Speed
limit repeaters and camera signs should be co‑located where permitted and practicable. For
fixed cameras, the speed limit and camera signs should normally be visible to the driver in the
same view as the camera. This might require speed limit repeater signs to be spaced at different
intervals to those recommended in Table 8‑4 where the signs would not otherwise coincide with
camera locations.

8.11 Temporary speed limits
8.11.1. Where temporary speed limits are provided in connection with road works, signing
should be in accordance with Chapter 8.

I guess the word "should" is a possible get out?

Car_54

alleycat` said:

Actually gets murkier in my eyes and wish i'd never asked

This is from the Traffic signs manual.

8.10.6. Speed enforcement should be highly visible, with drivers made fully aware of the
presence of cameras and of the prevailing speed limit.  The camera and speed limit signs should
always be clearly visible to drivers, and not obscured by other street furniture or vegetation. The
minimum clear visibility distance for the signs should be at least that shown in Table 8‑4. Speed
limit repeaters and camera signs should be co‑located where permitted and practicable. For
fixed cameras, the speed limit and camera signs should normally be visible to the driver in the
same view as the camera. This might require speed limit repeater signs to be spaced at different
intervals to those recommended in Table 8‑4 where the signs would not otherwise coincide with
camera locations.

8.11 Temporary speed limits
8.11.1. Where temporary speed limits are provided in connection with road works, signing
should be in accordance with Chapter 8.

I guess the word "should" is a possible get out?

Nothing murky about it. The Traffic Signs Manual is guidance, it is not the law.

diystarter7

Ebe_Scrooge said:

diystarter7 said:

diystarter7 said:

Ebe_Scrooge said:

Car_54 said:

Ebe_Scrooge said:

Taken from this website https://www.westyorkshire.police.uk/ask-the-police/question/Q642

"There is nothing in law that states that any speed camera device, whether fixed or mobile, must be marked in any way, signed or at a particular position. There are codes of practice and best practice guides that are set by police forces themselves but these are policies rather than law."

The first sentence is absolutely correct - no signs are ever needed.
The second is a bit puzzling. Signs are not the responsibility of the police, so why would they need codes of practice etc.?

That's a very fair point, actually.  Given that the source is a legitimate police website rather than some random tabloid newspaper or Facebook or whatever, one would hope that the information could be relied upon!  Would the police "advise" the council/highways authority as to whether they thought signage should or shouldn't be provided in a particular location?  No idea, just speculating.

Hi

Was there not the case of the motorway gantry cams being painted in grey initially ie same colour as the gantry and then they were forced to paint them yellow. Why was that the case?

I vaugley recall reading someone getting off with speeding as their was no warning - I could be wrong but about 90+% sure

Thanks

Hi

Just done my own research and I was right re grey cams being made to paint them yellow and you do need signs otherwise the AA state, "motorists feel they are being conned."

Thnaks

I don't disagree about them needing to be painted yellow, but can you point me in the direction of where it says "you do need signs"?  Every source I've managed to find says that signage is "recommended" or "advised", but that it is not a legal requirement.

Hi
Thanks for agreeing re the cams.

I will now post an aritcle from a news 

diystarter7

Ebe_Scrooge said:

diystarter7 said:

diystarter7 said:

Ebe_Scrooge said:

Car_54 said:

Ebe_Scrooge said:

Taken from this website https://www.westyorkshire.police.uk/ask-the-police/question/Q642

"There is nothing in law that states that any speed camera device, whether fixed or mobile, must be marked in any way, signed or at a particular position. There are codes of practice and best practice guides that are set by police forces themselves but these are policies rather than law."

The first sentence is absolutely correct - no signs are ever needed.
The second is a bit puzzling. Signs are not the responsibility of the police, so why would they need codes of practice etc.?

That's a very fair point, actually.  Given that the source is a legitimate police website rather than some random tabloid newspaper or Facebook or whatever, one would hope that the information could be relied upon!  Would the police "advise" the council/highways authority as to whether they thought signage should or shouldn't be provided in a particular location?  No idea, just speculating.

Hi

Was there not the case of the motorway gantry cams being painted in grey initially ie same colour as the gantry and then they were forced to paint them yellow. Why was that the case?

I vaugley recall reading someone getting off with speeding as their was no warning - I could be wrong but about 90+% sure

Thanks

Hi

Just done my own research and I was right re grey cams being made to paint them yellow and you do need signs otherwise the AA state, "motorists feel they are being conned."

Thnaks

I don't disagree about them needing to be painted yellow, but can you point me in the direction of where it says "you do need signs"?  Every source I've managed to find says that signage is "recommended" or "advised", but that it is not a legal requirement.

Hi mate

It's all in the link.

It may not be the law or it may be but it is expected hence the conformity!

Thanks

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3318030/Grey-speed-cameras-turned-yellow-safety-drive.html

Thanks

diystarter7

TadleyBaggie said:

diystarter7 said:

Just done my own research and I was right re grey cams being made to paint them yellow and you do need signs otherwise the AA state, "motorists feel they are being conned."

You need to research further. Way back (probably 20+ years) there was a government scheme that would allow the police get keep a percentage of the speeding fine revenue. However to do that the cameras had to be made more visible. That scheme was abandoned and there is now now revenue going to police and also no requirement to make cameras visible. What the AA say is nonsense.

You need  and see what is happening around you and I will post a link to confirm what I thought was real but can you please  do that as per highlighted in your post. Thanks

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3318030/Grey-speed-cameras-turned-yellow-safety-drive.html

SergeantBaker

diystarter7 said:

TadleyBaggie said:

diystarter7 said:

Just done my own research and I was right re grey cams being made to paint them yellow and you do need signs otherwise the AA state, "motorists feel they are being conned."

You need to research further. Way back (probably 20+ years) there was a government scheme that would allow the police get keep a percentage of the speeding fine revenue. However to do that the cameras had to be made more visible. That scheme was abandoned and there is now now revenue going to police and also no requirement to make cameras visible. What the AA say is nonsense.

You need  and see what is happening around you and I will post a link to confirm what I thought was real but can you do that as per highlighted in your post. Thanks

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3318030/Grey-speed-cameras-turned-yellow-safety-drive.html

It must be gospel if they Daily Mail say so.

Car_54

diystarter7 said:

Ebe_Scrooge said:

diystarter7 said:

diystarter7 said:

Ebe_Scrooge said:

Car_54 said:

Ebe_Scrooge said:

Taken from this website https://www.westyorkshire.police.uk/ask-the-police/question/Q642

"There is nothing in law that states that any speed camera device, whether fixed or mobile, must be marked in any way, signed or at a particular position. There are codes of practice and best practice guides that are set by police forces themselves but these are policies rather than law."

The first sentence is absolutely correct - no signs are ever needed.
The second is a bit puzzling. Signs are not the responsibility of the police, so why would they need codes of practice etc.?

That's a very fair point, actually.  Given that the source is a legitimate police website rather than some random tabloid newspaper or Facebook or whatever, one would hope that the information could be relied upon!  Would the police "advise" the council/highways authority as to whether they thought signage should or shouldn't be provided in a particular location?  No idea, just speculating.

Hi

Was there not the case of the motorway gantry cams being painted in grey initially ie same colour as the gantry and then they were forced to paint them yellow. Why was that the case?

I vaugley recall reading someone getting off with speeding as their was no warning - I could be wrong but about 90+% sure

Thanks

Hi

Just done my own research and I was right re grey cams being made to paint them yellow and you do need signs otherwise the AA state, "motorists feel they are being conned."

Thnaks

I don't disagree about them needing to be painted yellow, but can you point me in the direction of where it says "you do need signs"?  Every source I've managed to find says that signage is "recommended" or "advised", but that it is not a legal requirement.

Hi mate

It's all in the link.

It may not be the law or it may be but it is expected hence the conformity!

Thanks

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3318030/Grey-speed-cameras-turned-yellow-safety-drive.html

Thanks

That report was seven years ago. There have been four Transport Secretaries since then, and AFAIK none of them have actually followed this through.

Ebe_Scrooge

diystarter7 said:

Ebe_Scrooge said:

diystarter7 said:

diystarter7 said:

Ebe_Scrooge said:

Car_54 said:

Ebe_Scrooge said:

Taken from this website https://www.westyorkshire.police.uk/ask-the-police/question/Q642

"There is nothing in law that states that any speed camera device, whether fixed or mobile, must be marked in any way, signed or at a particular position. There are codes of practice and best practice guides that are set by police forces themselves but these are policies rather than law."

The first sentence is absolutely correct - no signs are ever needed.
The second is a bit puzzling. Signs are not the responsibility of the police, so why would they need codes of practice etc.?

That's a very fair point, actually.  Given that the source is a legitimate police website rather than some random tabloid newspaper or Facebook or whatever, one would hope that the information could be relied upon!  Would the police "advise" the council/highways authority as to whether they thought signage should or shouldn't be provided in a particular location?  No idea, just speculating.

Hi

Was there not the case of the motorway gantry cams being painted in grey initially ie same colour as the gantry and then they were forced to paint them yellow. Why was that the case?

I vaugley recall reading someone getting off with speeding as their was no warning - I could be wrong but about 90+% sure

Thanks

Hi

Just done my own research and I was right re grey cams being made to paint them yellow and you do need signs otherwise the AA state, "motorists feel they are being conned."

Thnaks

I don't disagree about them needing to be painted yellow, but can you point me in the direction of where it says "you do need signs"?  Every source I've managed to find says that signage is "recommended" or "advised", but that it is not a legal requirement.

Hi mate

It's all in the link.

It may not be the law or it may be but it is expected hence the conformity!

Thanks

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3318030/Grey-speed-cameras-turned-yellow-safety-drive.html

Thanks

Firstly, even that article refers to signage being "guidelines" rather than law.  Secondly, anything in that particular publication you linked to should be taken with a pinch - nay, a bucketful - of salt.

Ultimately, the OP's question was whether a speed camera is enforceable if there are no signs to warn of its presence.  The answer is unequivocally "yes".

diystarter7

Ebe_Scrooge said:

diystarter7 said:

Ebe_Scrooge said:

diystarter7 said:

diystarter7 said:

Ebe_Scrooge said:

Car_54 said:

Ebe_Scrooge said:

Taken from this website https://www.westyorkshire.police.uk/ask-the-police/question/Q642

"There is nothing in law that states that any speed camera device, whether fixed or mobile, must be marked in any way, signed or at a particular position. There are codes of practice and best practice guides that are set by police forces themselves but these are policies rather than law."

The first sentence is absolutely correct - no signs are ever needed.
The second is a bit puzzling. Signs are not the responsibility of the police, so why would they need codes of practice etc.?

That's a very fair point, actually.  Given that the source is a legitimate police website rather than some random tabloid newspaper or Facebook or whatever, one would hope that the information could be relied upon!  Would the police "advise" the council/highways authority as to whether they thought signage should or shouldn't be provided in a particular location?  No idea, just speculating.

Hi

Was there not the case of the motorway gantry cams being painted in grey initially ie same colour as the gantry and then they were forced to paint them yellow. Why was that the case?

I vaugley recall reading someone getting off with speeding as their was no warning - I could be wrong but about 90+% sure

Thanks

Hi

Just done my own research and I was right re grey cams being made to paint them yellow and you do need signs otherwise the AA state, "motorists feel they are being conned."

Thnaks

I don't disagree about them needing to be painted yellow, but can you point me in the direction of where it says "you do need signs"?  Every source I've managed to find says that signage is "recommended" or "advised", but that it is not a legal requirement.

Hi mate

It's all in the link.

It may not be the law or it may be but it is expected hence the conformity!

Thanks

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3318030/Grey-speed-cameras-turned-yellow-safety-drive.html

Thanks

Firstly, even that article refers to signage being "guidelines" rather than law.  Secondly, anything in that particular publication you linked to should be taken with a pinch - nay, a bucketful - of salt.

Ultimately, the OP's question was whether a speed camera is enforceable if there are no signs to warn of its presence.  The answer is unequivocally "yes".

Hi again

The truth is the cams were changed from grey to yellow, therefore it does not matter if it is guidelines or not.

True what you said about the OP's question but whenever there is a challenge like this in court, the defender wins.

Therefore, "guidelines" or not is irrelevant as I have proven what happened to the grey cams and I'm absolutely more than certain I could easily come up with a news article where a speeder was found not guilty due to lack of singage

Thanks