Boundary Question about Removing my Fence.

35har1old

RS2OOO said:

Its been interesting to read the various conversations and responses to the thread.

Considering the short section I've replaced cost more than £1000 in materials and took me 5 days including painting, it would be tempting to write to head office before I replace the rest of the fence just in case they do offer to contribute to the costs.

It would be equally tempting for me to say I'm excercising my right to completely remove the fence, or replace it with a tiny picket fence, knowing they will then have to pay for a proper fence to secure their premises and I might even get a couple of extra feet of garden out of it if they erect on their side of the boundary.....

But that's not me. My real concern is genuinely the risk of one of their residents hurting themselves in my garden or falling into the pond, so having read some of the opinions here, I will indeed write to their HO next time because in hindsight had something gone wrong this time it would have been a hard pill to live with, more so considering some of the advice I already received from here.

Just did a search for care homes dealing with Dementia in my area. On google the entire frontage of the premise there is no gate or fence to be seen. Must be relying on internal security.RS2OOO said:

35har1old said:

RS2OOO said:

Hi,

I think this is an unusual situation so thought I'd ask for advice.

I'm responsible for the boundary fence dividing my garden and next door. Its a long fence, over 30 metres. Next door was built after my house, was previously public space, so my deeds contain no relevant boundary information other than depicting my ownership of the fence.

Next door is a care home with vulnerable residents. They specialise in Dementia patients. It is common for residents to try and escape by any means possible, even trying to climb over my fence.

My fence needs replacing and due to its length will likely take a number of weekends to remove and replace, leaving lengthy periods where no fence exists. (Its an old style hand-built wooden fence with Aris rails through concrete pillars, not the modern type with panels that simply slot between posts).

I approached the Care Home, but there was nobody in a position of authority and the one Nurse I spoke to seemed to think I would have to erect a temporary fence on their side prior to removing my fence. I'm pretty confident this is incorrect.

As far as my knowledge goes, I can legally remove the fence as I please, but its not very neighbourly, and certainly won't go down well if a resident falls into and drowns in my pond!

I suspect they should have to erect a temporary fence while I carry out the works, but then who knows, maybe some law somewhere requires me to take responsibility?

Could someone advise what the process should or would be in a situation like this, and whether any legal implications may apply?

Did you own the house before the care home was built ?
Or did you move to the property after the care home was built.
The deeds states that you are responsible for the boundary fence but you say you have come across old fence post and barbed wire which you think was the original fence you also think the current fence was constructed at the time of construction of the nursing home which may suggest that the nursing home could have constructed it beyond the original boundary?
The boundary on the other side  of the nursing home is it of the same construction?
It's often the case in new build that when a builder is instructed to erect a fence he stays inside the original  fence.
Does the deeds give you measurements  from house to the boundary?

I think these questions have already been answered.

My house built in 1970's, care home built late 80's and opened in '92. The land was farmland prior, which has all been developed now. I don't know when my current (old) fence was erected, but it can be seen on Google earth in 2002. Previous Google earth image of 1996 is blurry, previous to that was 1990 and a fence very similar to the current one was in place. The barbed wire fence I found semi-buried clearly pre-dates that. Previous google earth imagary is too blurry to see.

The deeds make no verbal reference to the fence at all, only the symbol on the drawing indicating it is mine (oh, and reference to a 11kv electricity cable running along the fence line and a requirement not to plant trees there, but that's another story). The deeds pre-date the carehome.

Do you get a wayleaves payment for the cable easement ?

ThisIsWeird

Mil moved in to a bungalow in a local care home grounds. Residents in the bungalows are completely free to come and go - there is no security other than CCTV. Mind you, they need to demonstrate their corp-ment before being allowed to buy.
The main care home building, however, which houses residents incapable of looking after themselves, is fully secure. 
RS has observed that some residents in his neighbouring home are actively trying to 'escape' via his boundary. 
I would suggest that security fences for the home's boundaries is essential. And if the home were to do this, then it would save RS a small fortune, tho' that is not the primary reason for making HO aware of the situation.
I can see this turning out with the home putting up their own 'proper' fence directly alongside RS's new one, this fence combo looking a bit daft, and RS giving himself a darned good kicking.

Section62

ThisIsWeird said:

RS has observed that some residents in his neighbouring home are actively trying to 'escape' via his boundary. 
I would suggest that security fences for the home's boundaries is essential. And if the home were to do this, then it would save RS a small fortune, tho' that is not the primary reason for making HO aware of the situation.
I can see this turning out with the home putting up their own 'proper' fence directly alongside RS's new one, this fence combo looking a bit daft, and RS giving himself a darned good kicking.

The care home will need to have a risk assessment covering the risk of a resident managing to 'escape', and perhaps more importantly the risk of them coming to harm in making an attempt to 'escape' (e.g. having a fall, or the fence collapsing on them).

The mitigation for this risk doesn't necessarily require a "security fence" to be built.  It is likely that an alternative (and perhaps more effective) mitigation would be to ensure patients at risk are under supervision when using the garden.  Supervision is likely to be the most important factor, since an older person is potentially at as much risk attempting to scale an 8' security fence as they are a (say) 6' close-boarded one.

Ultimately, the operator of the home needs to consider it is just that - a "home" - and not a prison.  Unnecessarily erecting a "security" fence around the site may leave the residents with an increased feeling they are locked away in prison, rather than in a care setting, and the potential harm of this to their wellbeing may be greater than the possible risk of one coming to harm in "escaping".

From the OP's point of view, his home and garden is probably nicer having fences of the existing type around it.  I personally wouldn't want to poke the care home owners into putting up a "security" fence because they rarely look very attractive. (it would probably need planning consent though, so the OP would at least have the opportunity to make an objection for the council to not attach much weight to).

RS2OOO

35har1old said:

RS2OOO said:

Its been interesting to read the various conversations and responses to the thread.

Considering the short section I've replaced cost more than £1000 in materials and took me 5 days including painting, it would be tempting to write to head office before I replace the rest of the fence just in case they do offer to contribute to the costs.

It would be equally tempting for me to say I'm excercising my right to completely remove the fence, or replace it with a tiny picket fence, knowing they will then have to pay for a proper fence to secure their premises and I might even get a couple of extra feet of garden out of it if they erect on their side of the boundary.....

But that's not me. My real concern is genuinely the risk of one of their residents hurting themselves in my garden or falling into the pond, so having read some of the opinions here, I will indeed write to their HO next time because in hindsight had something gone wrong this time it would have been a hard pill to live with, more so considering some of the advice I already received from here.

Just did a search for care homes dealing with Dementia in my area. On google the entire frontage of the premise there is no gate or fence to be seen. Must be relying on internal security.RS2OOO said:

35har1old said:

RS2OOO said:

Hi,

I think this is an unusual situation so thought I'd ask for advice.

I'm responsible for the boundary fence dividing my garden and next door. Its a long fence, over 30 metres. Next door was built after my house, was previously public space, so my deeds contain no relevant boundary information other than depicting my ownership of the fence.

Next door is a care home with vulnerable residents. They specialise in Dementia patients. It is common for residents to try and escape by any means possible, even trying to climb over my fence.

My fence needs replacing and due to its length will likely take a number of weekends to remove and replace, leaving lengthy periods where no fence exists. (Its an old style hand-built wooden fence with Aris rails through concrete pillars, not the modern type with panels that simply slot between posts).

I approached the Care Home, but there was nobody in a position of authority and the one Nurse I spoke to seemed to think I would have to erect a temporary fence on their side prior to removing my fence. I'm pretty confident this is incorrect.

As far as my knowledge goes, I can legally remove the fence as I please, but its not very neighbourly, and certainly won't go down well if a resident falls into and drowns in my pond!

I suspect they should have to erect a temporary fence while I carry out the works, but then who knows, maybe some law somewhere requires me to take responsibility?

Could someone advise what the process should or would be in a situation like this, and whether any legal implications may apply?

Did you own the house before the care home was built ?
Or did you move to the property after the care home was built.
The deeds states that you are responsible for the boundary fence but you say you have come across old fence post and barbed wire which you think was the original fence you also think the current fence was constructed at the time of construction of the nursing home which may suggest that the nursing home could have constructed it beyond the original boundary?
The boundary on the other side  of the nursing home is it of the same construction?
It's often the case in new build that when a builder is instructed to erect a fence he stays inside the original  fence.
Does the deeds give you measurements  from house to the boundary?

I think these questions have already been answered.

My house built in 1970's, care home built late 80's and opened in '92. The land was farmland prior, which has all been developed now. I don't know when my current (old) fence was erected, but it can be seen on Google earth in 2002. Previous Google earth image of 1996 is blurry, previous to that was 1990 and a fence very similar to the current one was in place. The barbed wire fence I found semi-buried clearly pre-dates that. Previous google earth imagary is too blurry to see.

The deeds make no verbal reference to the fence at all, only the symbol on the drawing indicating it is mine (oh, and reference to a 11kv electricity cable running along the fence line and a requirement not to plant trees there, but that's another story). The deeds pre-date the carehome.

Do you get a wayleaves payment for the cable easement ?

Bit off topic, but no I don't, but have received random letters from legal firms offering to claim payment.

I ignore them because the previous owners erected an outbuilding and an extension over the alleged location of the cable (I say alleged because I'm not 100% convinced the cable is really there). I Obtained indemnity insurance during conveyancing, and the terms of that insurance is "not to rock the boat" so to speak.

RS2OOO

Section62 said:

ThisIsWeird said:

RS has observed that some residents in his neighbouring home are actively trying to 'escape' via his boundary. 
I would suggest that security fences for the home's boundaries is essential. And if the home were to do this, then it would save RS a small fortune, tho' that is not the primary reason for making HO aware of the situation.
I can see this turning out with the home putting up their own 'proper' fence directly alongside RS's new one, this fence combo looking a bit daft, and RS giving himself a darned good kicking.

The care home will need to have a risk assessment covering the risk of a resident managing to 'escape', and perhaps more importantly the risk of them coming to harm in making an attempt to 'escape' (e.g. having a fall, or the fence collapsing on them).

The mitigation for this risk doesn't necessarily require a "security fence" to be built.  It is likely that an alternative (and perhaps more effective) mitigation would be to ensure patients at risk are under supervision when using the garden.  Supervision is likely to be the most important factor, since an older person is potentially at as much risk attempting to scale an 8' security fence as they are a (say) 6' close-boarded one.

Ultimately, the operator of the home needs to consider it is just that - a "home" - and not a prison.  Unnecessarily erecting a "security" fence around the site may leave the residents with an increased feeling they are locked away in prison, rather than in a care setting, and the potential harm of this to their wellbeing may be greater than the possible risk of one coming to harm in "escaping".

From the OP's point of view, his home and garden is probably nicer having fences of the existing type around it.  I personally wouldn't want to poke the care home owners into putting up a "security" fence because they rarely look very attractive. (it would probably need planning consent though, so the OP would at least have the opportunity to make an objection for the council to not attach much weight to).

You make some interesting points, thanks.

elsien

Section62 said:

ThisIsWeird said:

RS has observed that some residents in his neighbouring home are actively trying to 'escape' via his boundary. 
I would suggest that security fences for the home's boundaries is essential. And if the home were to do this, then it would save RS a small fortune, tho' that is not the primary reason for making HO aware of the situation.
I can see this turning out with the home putting up their own 'proper' fence directly alongside RS's new one, this fence combo looking a bit daft, and RS giving himself a darned good kicking.

The care home will need to have a risk assessment covering the risk of a resident managing to 'escape', and perhaps more importantly the risk of them coming to harm in making an attempt to 'escape' (e.g. having a fall, or the fence collapsing on them).

The mitigation for this risk doesn't necessarily require a "security fence" to be built.  It is likely that an alternative (and perhaps more effective) mitigation would be to ensure patients at risk are under supervision when using the garden.  Supervision is likely to be the most important factor, since an older person is potentially at as much risk attempting to scale an 8' security fence as they are a (say) 6' close-boarded one.

Ultimately, the operator of the home needs to consider it is just that - a "home" - and not a prison.  Unnecessarily erecting a "security" fence around the site may leave the residents with an increased feeling they are locked away in prison, rather than in a care setting, and the potential harm of this to their wellbeing may be greater than the possible risk of one coming to harm in "escaping".

From the OP's point of view, his home and garden is probably nicer having fences of the existing type around it.  I personally wouldn't want to poke the care home owners into putting up a "security" fence because they rarely look very attractive. (it would probably need planning consent though, so the OP would at least have the opportunity to make an objection for the council to not attach much weight to).

And even further off topic, if someone is actively trying to "escape" then someone (not the OP!) should be challenging whether they are correctly placed and looking at the reasons why they are trying to leave.
That however is another topic entirely. 

RS2OOO

elsien said:

Section62 said:

ThisIsWeird said:

RS has observed that some residents in his neighbouring home are actively trying to 'escape' via his boundary. 
I would suggest that security fences for the home's boundaries is essential. And if the home were to do this, then it would save RS a small fortune, tho' that is not the primary reason for making HO aware of the situation.
I can see this turning out with the home putting up their own 'proper' fence directly alongside RS's new one, this fence combo looking a bit daft, and RS giving himself a darned good kicking.

The care home will need to have a risk assessment covering the risk of a resident managing to 'escape', and perhaps more importantly the risk of them coming to harm in making an attempt to 'escape' (e.g. having a fall, or the fence collapsing on them).

The mitigation for this risk doesn't necessarily require a "security fence" to be built.  It is likely that an alternative (and perhaps more effective) mitigation would be to ensure patients at risk are under supervision when using the garden.  Supervision is likely to be the most important factor, since an older person is potentially at as much risk attempting to scale an 8' security fence as they are a (say) 6' close-boarded one.

Ultimately, the operator of the home needs to consider it is just that - a "home" - and not a prison.  Unnecessarily erecting a "security" fence around the site may leave the residents with an increased feeling they are locked away in prison, rather than in a care setting, and the potential harm of this to their wellbeing may be greater than the possible risk of one coming to harm in "escaping".

From the OP's point of view, his home and garden is probably nicer having fences of the existing type around it.  I personally wouldn't want to poke the care home owners into putting up a "security" fence because they rarely look very attractive. (it would probably need planning consent though, so the OP would at least have the opportunity to make an objection for the council to not attach much weight to).

And even further off topic, if someone is actively trying to "escape" then someone (not the OP!) should be challenging whether they are correctly placed and looking at the reasons why they are trying to leave.
That however is another topic entirely. 

Already put a similar question to the care home manager.

His response was that there's 3 main types of patients.......
Some who try to escape are usually the most severely ill and die within a couple of weeks of being in the home.

Others, who don't die, are deemed too severe to stay in the home and are moved on to more secure nursing homes.

And finally those who have loads of money (prices start at £1054 p/w, moving up to £1400 ish p/w) and don't want to be anywhere else so just stay either until they die or until they run out of money. These latter ones don't attempt anything silly and tend to be mild dementia cases and have volunteered themselves to stay at the home for their own safety.

Despite what he said, there were 2 last summer who came out rattling the gate in the middle of every night trying to escape and this went on for at least 4 weeks. There was one who climbed over the gate (8 ft) but didn't make it off the grounds, and this year we often see one very frail old lady pressing the codes on the security gate and she can be there for a good 20 minutes before a nurse spots her.

Escape attempts seem to be more at night time and we can see them from our bedroom window. The manager said this is because at night they tend to have different agency staff working ad-hoc and the residents don't like the unfamiliarity.

elsien

Just for information, (because it's my job to help people who lack capacity who are unhappy with their situation to challenge in the Court of Protection, and I like to educate )  anyone who is objecting verbally or by their behaviour to their care and support in the home should be supported to challenge.

Deprivation of Liberty Safeguards (DoLS) at a glance | SCIE

Where their representative is a family member who thinks they are in the best place for them, the family member should put their own views aside and support the person to challenge. This doesn't happen anywhere near as often as it should. I can see why - the family member is between a rock and a hard place - but the law is clear. The decision may be that the home is still the best place for them but other things can be put in place to ease the level of restrictions. Care home managers will happily ignore any level of objections for prolonged periods of time.
Ex-care home manager myself so it makes me cross when care homes aren't being pro-active enough. 

ThisIsWeird

Section62 said:

ThisIsWeird said:

RS has observed that some residents in his neighbouring home are actively trying to 'escape' via his boundary. 
I would suggest that security fences for the home's boundaries is essential. And if the home were to do this, then it would save RS a small fortune, tho' that is not the primary reason for making HO aware of the situation.
I can see this turning out with the home putting up their own 'proper' fence directly alongside RS's new one, this fence combo looking a bit daft, and RS giving himself a darned good kicking.

The care home will need to have a risk assessment covering the risk of a resident managing to 'escape', and perhaps more importantly the risk of them coming to harm in making an attempt to 'escape' (e.g. having a fall, or the fence collapsing on them).

The mitigation for this risk doesn't necessarily require a "security fence" to be built.  It is likely that an alternative (and perhaps more effective) mitigation would be to ensure patients at risk are under supervision when using the garden.  Supervision is likely to be the most important factor, since an older person is potentially at as much risk attempting to scale an 8' security fence as they are a (say) 6' close-boarded one.

Ultimately, the operator of the home needs to consider it is just that - a "home" - and not a prison.  Unnecessarily erecting a "security" fence around the site may leave the residents with an increased feeling they are locked away in prison, rather than in a care setting, and the potential harm of this to their wellbeing may be greater than the possible risk of one coming to harm in "escaping".

From the OP's point of view, his home and garden is probably nicer having fences of the existing type around it.  I personally wouldn't want to poke the care home owners into putting up a "security" fence because they rarely look very attractive. (it would probably need planning consent though, so the OP would at least have the opportunity to make an objection for the council to not attach much weight to).

Absolutely. And all points that I have made.
There's no suggestion that RS 'tells' HO what to do, or what type of fence they 'should' be putting up, but I personally think that HO should be made aware of what has been happening. I think that is the right thing to do.
And, yes, it runs the 'risk' of the chosen response being to erect an unsightly 'security' fence that RS might not want, but - if that is what's required - then that's surely the correct outcome?

RS2OOO

ThisIsWeird said:

Section62 said:

ThisIsWeird said:

RS has observed that some residents in his neighbouring home are actively trying to 'escape' via his boundary. 
I would suggest that security fences for the home's boundaries is essential. And if the home were to do this, then it would save RS a small fortune, tho' that is not the primary reason for making HO aware of the situation.
I can see this turning out with the home putting up their own 'proper' fence directly alongside RS's new one, this fence combo looking a bit daft, and RS giving himself a darned good kicking.

The care home will need to have a risk assessment covering the risk of a resident managing to 'escape', and perhaps more importantly the risk of them coming to harm in making an attempt to 'escape' (e.g. having a fall, or the fence collapsing on them).

The mitigation for this risk doesn't necessarily require a "security fence" to be built.  It is likely that an alternative (and perhaps more effective) mitigation would be to ensure patients at risk are under supervision when using the garden.  Supervision is likely to be the most important factor, since an older person is potentially at as much risk attempting to scale an 8' security fence as they are a (say) 6' close-boarded one.

Ultimately, the operator of the home needs to consider it is just that - a "home" - and not a prison.  Unnecessarily erecting a "security" fence around the site may leave the residents with an increased feeling they are locked away in prison, rather than in a care setting, and the potential harm of this to their wellbeing may be greater than the possible risk of one coming to harm in "escaping".

From the OP's point of view, his home and garden is probably nicer having fences of the existing type around it.  I personally wouldn't want to poke the care home owners into putting up a "security" fence because they rarely look very attractive. (it would probably need planning consent though, so the OP would at least have the opportunity to make an objection for the council to not attach much weight to).

Absolutely. And all points that I have made.
There's no suggestion that RS 'tells' HO what to do, or what type of fence they 'should' be putting up, but I personally think that HO should be made aware of what has been happening. I think that is the right thing to do.
And, yes, it runs the 'risk' of the chosen response being to erect an unsightly 'security' fence that RS might not want, but - if that is what's required - then that's surely the correct outcome?

Personally I don't think they would erect a security fence, it would not fit with the pleasant environment that currently exists.

My garden is higher up than theirs, they have a permiiter path then a small bank up to my fence line. A 6 foot close boarded fence is plenty adequate, as long as the aris rails are on my side (to prevent climbing attempts). A high security fence would be an odd and overly expensive decision and I suspect that decision would only ever be made if I was daft enough to force them in that direction by being unreasonable.