Boundary Question about Removing my Fence.

RS2OOO

Ath_Wat said:

The more I think about this the more I am amazed that there isn't already a secure fence around the whole perimeter of the care home property, regardless of what other people have or do not have.  The idea that they are relying on existing fences belonging to other properties seems entirely absurd.  You'd think it was one of the basic requirements.

Actually, it is quite surprising come to think about it.

So I had a walk around, its quite a big (ish) site. The majority of the  (6 foot fenced) boundaries back onto public space, a public green plus an L-shaped section into someone else's garden at the top end, a fenced off stream at the bottom, a road at the far side, and my property at the near side.

For the L-shaped section that backs on to someone else's garden I noticed their garden fence is very flimsy and can see the Care Home has erected a large shed and put fencing either side of the shed so as to square off the L-shape, thus blocking their residents access to the flimsy fence.

I'm yet to speak to them as I'm now unlikely to start the work before Christmas, but have been given some good pointers here on the best way to approach it.

Thanks again.

Mutton_Geoff

RS2OOO said:

Its an old style hand-built wooden fence with Aris rails through concrete pillars, not the modern type with panels that simply slot between posts.

Nothing old style about arris rail fencing, personally I prefer them as they are much more sturdy than fence panels (unless you start spending £70 a panel from someone like Jacksons) and, imho look better.

The panels you mention will need a post every 1.8m vs the 3m span of arris railed built fence so you'd need 17 holes and posts for a 30m span vs 11 if you went for the "old fashioned" method.

TELLIT01

RS2OOO said:

I'm yet to speak to them as I'm now unlikely to start the work before Christmas, but have been given some good pointers here on the best way to approach it.

Thanks again.

I would still contact them now, so they have time to get their own fence erected.  If they still fail to act you have the evidence that you gave them plenty of warning.

Eldi_Dos

RS2OOO said:

grumbler said:

I'm pretty sure it's their problem to stop the residents from leaving, but can't you do this gradually by removing the old fence and installing the new one at the same time? A small gap is very easy  to take care of.

That would be the intention, but I think an unrealistic aim as there's a surprising amount of work to do which doesn't bode well with limited daylight hours or my shift working to avoid sections being exposed for a few days at a time.

This may sound a bit greedy or opportunistic.

I would write to care home manager and their HO stating that you intend to replace fence from say 1st of March and no secure boundary will be in place till work is completed.
There is good chance they will erect a suitable fence on their property before then or come back to you with a proposal to carry out work on your fence in a manner that suits them and to which they make a contribution.

RS2OOO

Update.....

Its been a while, but finally getting round to starting work on the fence, but due to the length of it and costs I can only afford to do small sections at a time.

The Carehome Manager was very helpful, albeit ill informed.

He suggested whoever carried out the work would need to be DBS registered. I said that is not something I would be doing and they accepted and agreed they could keep their residents indoors until the work is completed, although I think as soon as he said that he realised it wasn't a realistic option and immediately revised it as follows:

Could I, after giving them 48 hours notice prior to fence removal, erect a temporary fence on their side while work takes place, but again, whoever installs the temporary fence would need to be DBS registered. Again, I said that couldn't work.

When I explained due to costs I could only do small sections at a time essentially making this an ongoing / long term project the Manager then had a brainwave......

He said, ring head office and play dumb. Explain the fence needs replacing and ask who's responsibility it is to repair and see what they say; they might cover some or all of the costs and/or labour in view of the DBS situation.

Alternatively he said ring them and be up front that its my fence and explain I'll be removing it altogether and replacing it with a small picket fence. They would have no choice but to install a new fence on their side.

As attractive as the last option sounds from a financial perspective, it isn't really the morally correct option, but given the other options offered (being DBS registered etc) it might be worth a phonecall to gauge the situation.

warwick2001

Having recently had to put my Nana into a dementia care home, I suspect, legally, it is absolutely the care home's responsibility to keep their residents safe from harm, which should/will include the outdoor facilities, within the boundaries of their facility. This point was actually stressed to us very strongly, as the care home my Nana resided in was on a cliff face, ergo they had to make the boundaries safe and secure (for the record, they had a massive wall, but this would (probably) not suit your requirements).

I suspect it will be the care home operator's responsibility to maintain/replace a physical boundary where necessary (i.e. where the residents may be able leave the premises, or come to harm), and given its an absolute necessity, they may (read that as should) pay for it in full, along with the labour needed. As you are not a professional fencer (at least I assume not), you will probably not have the experience of building fences to a professional level for the purposes of security and safety. Again, I suspect there will be some clause in the care home's regulations that state the boundaries need to be maintained by a competent person, for the purposes of security and safety of the residents.

I don't mean to scaremonger, but care homes will have a raft of regulations to follow in order to operate, and the care, safety and security of the residents will be pretty high on the list. HSE, the Care Act 2014, Safeguarding requirements, Quality Care Commission etc etc.

If it was up to me, I would insist the care home erects its own fences (or suitable security features) on its boundaries. I would not want to build the fence, have a resident hurt themselves somehow on your fence, and then the legal issues that comes with that. I don't think you would be held liable, but I reckon it would be a pretty stressful situation during the investigation that would undoubtedly follow. Getting the care home operator to agree and pay, though, may be a different kettle of fish.

You mention that it wouldn't be the 'morally right' thing to do to insist they erect their own fence. In this situation, I suspect it is their legal and regulatory requirement to do so.

All this might be moot though, as the majority of the regulations tend to be for the 'internals' of the property, and not necessarily the boundaries. Best bet, give em a ring and see what they say. The following link has a lot of info in regards your issue

Care Home Security & Access Assessments - Reducing the Risk of Falls and of Residents Leaving the Site - Marpal

RS2OOO

warwick2001 said:

Having recently had to put my Nana into a dementia care home, I suspect, legally, it is absolutely the care home's responsibility to keep their residents safe from harm, which should/will include the outdoor facilities, within the boundaries of their facility. This point was actually stressed to us very strongly, as the care home my Nana resided in was on a cliff face, ergo they had to make the boundaries safe and secure (for the record, they had a massive wall, but this would (probably) not suit your requirements).

I suspect it will be the care home operator's responsibility to maintain/replace a physical boundary where necessary (i.e. where the residents may be able leave the premises, or come to harm), and given its an absolute necessity, they may (read that as should) pay for it in full, along with the labour needed. As you are not a professional fencer (at least I assume not), you will probably not have the experience of building fences to a professional level for the purposes of security and safety. Again, I suspect there will be some clause in the care home's regulations that state the boundaries need to be maintained by a competent person, for the purposes of security and safety of the residents.

I don't mean to scaremonger, but care homes will have a raft of regulations to follow in order to operate, and the care, safety and security of the residents will be pretty high on the list. HSE, the Care Act 2014, Safeguarding requirements, Quality Care Commission etc etc.

If it was up to me, I would insist the care home erects its own fences (or suitable security features) on its boundaries. I would not want to build the fence, have a resident hurt themselves somehow on your fence, and then the legal issues that comes with that. I don't think you would be held liable, but I reckon it would be a pretty stressful situation during the investigation that would undoubtedly follow. Getting the care home operator to agree and pay, though, may be a different kettle of fish.

You mention that it wouldn't be the 'morally right' thing to do to insist they erect their own fence. In this situation, I suspect it is their legal and regulatory requirement to do so.

All this might be moot though, as the majority of the regulations tend to be for the 'internals' of the property, and not necessarily the boundaries. Best bet, give em a ring and see what they say. The following link has a lot of info in regards your issue

Care Home Security & Access Assessments - Reducing the Risk of Falls and of Residents Leaving the Site - Marpal

I'm sorry to read about your Nana.

What you've written makes a lot of sense and as nice as the Care Home Manager was (he even said he'd help me with the fence work if I got stuck), what you've said reinforces my feeling there was a lack of understanding on their part as to the seriousness of what I'm proposing. Particularly so considering the Manager informed me an 80 year old resident recently climbed over the 8 foot tall metal gates in an escape attempt.

I already have someone booked in to replace a short (25 foot) complicated section of the fence next week that runs alongside my lean-to so I will go ahead with that regardless, but prior to starting work on the rest of the fence I will indeed call the care home operator.

elsien

If you look on the CQC website for the particular care home it should give you the name of the registered person responsible for the home and some contact details. 

While absolutely agreeing it’s the care homes responsibility and they cannot insist that people doing work for you on your side are DBS checked or that you put a temporary fence up on their side, it may well be that there is someone higher than the manager that you could go to who may have slightly more going on up top.
If you continue to have concerns the CQC website also has a form which you can use to raise concerns and you could use that to alert them to the security issues and your feeling that the care home or not understanding their responsibilities. Or if there is a real possibility of residents coming to harm and you don’t feel that the care home are doing enough to mitigate that you could contact the local authority safeguarding team. Detail should be on their webpage.

My feeling would be, having run a care home myself, that no one can insist that you do anything with your fence -  if you left no boundary there at all that would be your choice. No one can force you to erect or maintain a fence - the care home residents security is not your problem. 

 But the care home should then install its own boundary fence on its own land to meet the needs of the people they are being paid to look after. 

ThisIsWeird

RS2OOO said:

He said, ring head office and play dumb. Explain the fence needs replacing and ask who's responsibility it is to repair and see what they say; they might cover some or all of the costs and/or labour in view of the DBS situation.

Alternatively he said ring them and be up front that its my fence and explain I'll be removing it altogether and replacing it with a small picket fence. They would have no choice but to install a new fence on their side.

As attractive as the last option sounds from a financial perspective, it isn't really the morally correct option, but given the other options offered (being DBS registered etc) it might be worth a phonecall to gauge the situation.

Hi RS.

You have been very patient and understanding. And I applaud your reluctance to try a wee white fib such as pretending to be considering a low picket fence. That isn't needed - just the facts. And these would appear to be:

1) The fence is your neighbourly 'responsibility', but - unless it's specifically outlined in the terms of your deeds - you are not obliged to keep it in good order, or even have one at all. Folk maintain their boundary fences 'cos it's the 'right' and 'civil' thing to do, or to prevent it causing harm or damage by falling over. The exception to this is if you need to keep something within your garden - children or animals or a relative with dementia, for example.

2) The fence needs replacing, but you'd struggle to do this at the moment, certainly to do it all in one. If this were a 'normal' residential neighbour, then you'd simply inform them of this, and warn them that 'it could take some time', and 'you cannot guarantee the security of the boundary at times'. That's all fair and reasonable - they have been warned, so they need to take any required contingencies to keep their property secure. The same applies to this care home - even more so.

3) It is not your responsibility to protect the residents of the care home by having a fence that acts as a security barrier to them. You can have any fence you like - paper-thin trellis panels - or none at all. (Proviso - if you know that removing your fence could cause issues, then it would be right to inform and warn the other party of this, and give them fair warning that the boundary will not be secure after the Xth; give them a chance to make their own arrangements. For instance, if a neighbour had a dawg in their garden, it would be right for you to inform the neighbour that you would not be able to guarantee the security of your fence from a certain date, and this would give them a fair time to put their own measures into place. They would need to keep that boundary secure for their dawg. Bear in mind that, even before you take the fence down, it's still not your responsibility to keep your fence secure against their dog - that's fully theirs.)

4) If some residents are making genuine attempts to 'escape' over your garden fence, then I think it can be concluded that something better than a standard 2m-high garden fence is required. Garden fence panels are not 'security' fences, and most reasonably physically capable folk could scale, or break through, one with relative ease.

Options?

a) You inform head office, in a recordable way, that your fence needs repair, and that you will begin this work on the Xth for an indeterminate time; you are giving them notice that, from this date, the boundary will not be secure (having mentioned that some residents do try and climb over the fence). They will have no option but to either put up their own form of fence or security barrier, or else keep their residents indoors. There will be no time-limit on how long you may take. As I said, you can even leave the fence permanently missing.

b) Suggest a compromise. Explain that the existing fence needs replacing, but you cannot do it all in one go. In any case, you are concerned that repeated attempts to scale the fence could damage it, and this would be their responsibility. Suggest sharing the cost of an acceptable fence.

What would be your ideal scenario? Bear in mind that if they put up a fence on their side - as they'll ultimately have to - it will likely be a 'security' type, so ~3m poles with wire or metal-mesh fencing. Not pretty. And that will leave you with the task of making your side pretty again. Mind you, this can be done far more cheaply than with a full, close-boarded, fence; timber posts with trellis panels should be enough to beautify it, for example.

I suspect that this is what will happen. They'll put a security fence up, for the simple reason that they have to. Whether there's an option to arrive at a shared-cost, shared-style compromise is, I think, unlikely, but possibly worth a go.

Regardless, the security of these residents is not your responsibility; once you give them notice, they need to handle the situation.

Deal only with head office - that care home manager is, indeed, ill-informed. He/she should be acting on this right away - it is a genuine security issue, and one they have been made aware of. And to suggest that you need a DBS check to work on your fence on your own property is, well, dearie me. As if they're going to insist on this in case you accidentally place a foot over the boundary whilst bracing a fence post?! In any event, they'd have locked up all the residents by then, wouldn't they, since you have made the boundary open...

RS2OOO

Thanks all for the great responses.

I will see how things go with the short section being replaced next week (alongside the lean-to) and go from there with regards to the rest of the fence and speaking to the care home / business owner at head office.

Not sure if I mentioned previously, but it is quite relevant to the safety of the care home residents, and that is my garden pond which is 2 metres deep. I did mention this to the care home manager as a concern but his mind was already doing overtime and he didn't really react to it.