Mail online article about how the rolling blackouts will be planned and implemented.

jrawle

deano2099 said:

I agree with you on TOU tariffs. My points come from the opposite direction actually, I'd assumed most E7-designed installations *were* more modern and less antiquated. Having a device in your home hardwired to a timer that you have no control over and literally can't power outside of those times *is* what I see as antiquated. I'd assumed we had moved on from that!

When I lived in a flat with E7 and storage heaters, the fact that they were hard-wired to a circuit that only came live during the E7 hours was a highly desirable feature in my view. It's the only way to ensure there's no possibility of accidentally running the heaters on peak rate at huge cost. If you don't have this, you have to have a separate timer for your heaters, and be very careful that one or the other doesn't drift, resulting in peak usage. I have seen threads on here where that has happened.

EssexHebridean

jrawle said:

deano2099 said:

I agree with you on TOU tariffs. My points come from the opposite direction actually, I'd assumed most E7-designed installations *were* more modern and less antiquated. Having a device in your home hardwired to a timer that you have no control over and literally can't power outside of those times *is* what I see as antiquated. I'd assumed we had moved on from that!

When I lived in a flat with E7 and storage heaters, the fact that they were hard-wired to a circuit that only came live during the E7 hours was a highly desirable feature in my view. It's the only way to ensure there's no possibility of accidentally running the heaters on peak rate at huge cost. If you don't have this, you have to have a separate timer for your heaters, and be very careful that one or the other doesn't drift, resulting in peak usage. I have seen threads on here where that has happened.

Exactly this - see also people having the new HR quantum heaters installed on a single circuit which runs 24 hours - where they have to make sure that the heaters themselves are programmed correctly - a fiddly task buried deep in one of the system menus. 

deano2099

[Deleted User] said:

Most E7 metering arrangements, including smart meters and regardless of the wiring, rely on recording usage into two different registers (think the old-fashioned number dials but electronic).  Which register is 'live' and counting up at any time determines whether you are paying peak or off-peak prices, and that is controlled by the timer (or the firmware) and tariff settings.  At the supplier end, they just get these two totals and apply the relevant price.  Changing which hours you apply the rates for would require changing which register the meter was recording into.  That isn't a billing exercise, that's a meter reprogramming exercise.

It is only very rare modern ToU tariffs that actually take the 30-minute data into the billing system to be able to decide what price to charge at each slot.

Wow, that's utterly bizarre to me. I had assumed an E7 smart meter was just a regular smart meter with the tariff applied differently based on time of use. Does it work the other way around, do you know? So if I had a regular smart meter, I couldn't get an E7 tariff?

[Deleted User]

deano2099 said:

[Deleted User] said:

Most E7 metering arrangements, including smart meters and regardless of the wiring, rely on recording usage into two different registers (think the old-fashioned number dials but electronic).  Which register is 'live' and counting up at any time determines whether you are paying peak or off-peak prices, and that is controlled by the timer (or the firmware) and tariff settings.  At the supplier end, they just get these two totals and apply the relevant price.  Changing which hours you apply the rates for would require changing which register the meter was recording into.  That isn't a billing exercise, that's a meter reprogramming exercise.

It is only very rare modern ToU tariffs that actually take the 30-minute data into the billing system to be able to decide what price to charge at each slot.

Wow, that's utterly bizarre to me. I had assumed an E7 smart meter was just a regular smart meter with the tariff applied differently based on time of use. Does it work the other way around, do you know? So if I had a regular smart meter, I couldn't get an E7 tariff?

A 'regular' smart meter and an 'E7' smart meter are actually the same thing - I was slightly simplifying by saying 2 registers, there are usually 4, of which you use either 1 or 2.  A supplier would fit the same meter to every house regardless of tariff.

That's how you can switch between single and multi-rate tariffs without changing meter.  The supplier just tells the meter to only use bucket 1 rather than bucket 1 & 2.  They could change this every day if they wanted, but it would be reprogramming the meter rather than just changing the maths on their side.

As the modern tariffs become more popular and widespread, suppliers will have to switch to taking a full XML of the 30-minute readings as standard - then all the calculations and aggregations can be done at the supplier side - Octopus Agile (for example) shows your usage and price for each 30-minute block individually, and can do for each day of your bill if I remember some of the screenshots I've seen.

jrawle

Deleted_User said:

A 'regular' smart meter and an 'E7' smart meter are actually the same thing - I was slightly simplifying by saying 2 registers, there are usually 4, of which you use either 1 or 2.  A supplier would fit the same meter to every house regardless of tariff.

That's how you can switch between single and multi-rate tariffs without changing meter.  The supplier just tells the meter to only use bucket 1 rather than bucket 1 & 2.  They could change this every day if they wanted, but it would be reprogramming the meter rather than just changing the maths on their side.

As the modern tariffs become more popular and widespread, suppliers will have to switch to taking a full XML of the 30-minute readings as standard - then all the calculations and aggregations can be done at the supplier side - Octopus Agile (for example) shows your usage and price for each 30-minute block individually, and can do for each day of your bill if I remember some of the screenshots I've seen.

While it's true that any smart meter can be reprogrammed to offer an E7 tariff, I believe if you want it to be able to switch on a separate circuit during off-peak times for your storage heaters as I described above, you need to have a five terminal smart meter installed. I understand from reading threads on here that these are in short supply, and that some suppliers attempt to fob people off and fit a standard smart meter. Together with the eventual switching off of the radio signal, this makes me glad I no longer have a property that requires E7!

[Deleted User]

jrawle said:

Deleted_User said:

A 'regular' smart meter and an 'E7' smart meter are actually the same thing - I was slightly simplifying by saying 2 registers, there are usually 4, of which you use either 1 or 2.  A supplier would fit the same meter to every house regardless of tariff.

That's how you can switch between single and multi-rate tariffs without changing meter.  The supplier just tells the meter to only use bucket 1 rather than bucket 1 & 2.  They could change this every day if they wanted, but it would be reprogramming the meter rather than just changing the maths on their side.

As the modern tariffs become more popular and widespread, suppliers will have to switch to taking a full XML of the 30-minute readings as standard - then all the calculations and aggregations can be done at the supplier side - Octopus Agile (for example) shows your usage and price for each 30-minute block individually, and can do for each day of your bill if I remember some of the screenshots I've seen.

While it's true that any smart meter can be reprogrammed to offer an E7 tariff, I believe if you want it to be able to switch on a separate circuit during off-peak times for your storage heaters as I described above, you need to have a five terminal smart meter installed. I understand from reading threads on here that these are in short supply, and that some suppliers attempt to fob people off and fit a standard smart meter. Together with the eventual switching off of the radio signal, this makes me glad I no longer have a property that requires E7!

You don't.  We've been through this on other threads.  There is an auxiliary control terminal on a smart meter than can operate an external switch for the E7 circuits - not one of the 'normal' four terminals.

There are hundreds (probably thousands) of 4-terminal smart meters running switched E7 supplies.

70sbudgie

I've only skim read this very long conversation, so apologies if I am repeating something that has already been said. 

From the ELECTRICITY SUPPLY 

EMERGENCY CODE that someone posted a link to much further up the conversation:

"The Variable Rota Disconnection Plan (VRDP) divides non-protected sites in a Network Operator’s (DNO) licence area into 18 

groups of near equal demand. For the purposes of ESEC, these groups are referred to 

as Load Blocks. "

As there are 14 DNOs, I would expect that there are 14 different areas across the country that are in load block S, for example.

How many properties are in each load block will depend on the DNO (I imagine that UKPN have a lot more bill payers in their area than ENWL) and the surrounding demand types. I expect load blocks dominated by residential properties would cover a much larger geographic area than those dominated by heavy industry.

Also given the numbers - 18 load blocks per DNO, I imagine that the load blocks are roughly defined by GSP (grid supply points - where the distribution network connects to the transmission network). But the switching will have to be at 33kV or lower because of protected sites.

Also, the list of protected sites is quite broad - and almost at the top of the list is electricity infrastructure. So being on the same 33kV circuit as a 20MW wind farm will be a good thing! 

As already pointed out, these emergency plans will only be implemented if the ESO has no other way of meeting demand with the available generation. 

Also from the ESEC:

"NGESO will normally advise the BEIS 

ERT no later than 14.00 each day of the Rota Plan it considers necessary for the 

following 24-hour period, scheduled to commence at 00.30. When advising the BEIS 

ERT of the Rota Plan required, NGESO will take into account an optimum margin of 

remaining generation available and the level of flows on interconnections with 

neighbouring transmission systems. The BEIS ERT will confirm the Indicative Rota Plan to be used, taking into account the national generation/demand position and shape of 

the load curve, no later than 15.00. NGESO will seek to minimise the amount of rota 

disconnection for the following day and will generate an Implementation Rota Plan from 

the Indicative Rota Plan."

I guess that the notices will be something like - timeslot, level of disconnection. So for example 15:30-18:30, disconnection level 2. On a Thursday this would mean load blocks R and P.

But with notice around 3pm the day before, it should be possible to amend behaviours to reduce demand and hopefully we may be able to avoid the disconnections? I didn't experience the 70's blackouts, so I have no benchmark of how long a disconnection event is likely to be - would it be restricted to a single timeslot? Also, how willing is the population to change their behaviour to avoid disconnections? And as I think someone has pointed out, the need for this will mainly be dependent on the unpredictability of renewable (wind) generation. So is different again to the 70's blackouts, when it was known how much coal was available.

Edit to add the table:

[Deleted User]

Thanks, but you have repeated exactly what was already said including the table.

jrawle

[Deleted User] said:

jrawle said:

While it's true that any smart meter can be reprogrammed to offer an E7 tariff, I believe if you want it to be able to switch on a separate circuit during off-peak times for your storage heaters as I described above, you need to have a five terminal smart meter installed. I understand from reading threads on here that these are in short supply, and that some suppliers attempt to fob people off and fit a standard smart meter. Together with the eventual switching off of the radio signal, this makes me glad I no longer have a property that requires E7!

You don't.  We've been through this on other threads.  There is an auxiliary control terminal on a smart meter than can operate an external switch for the E7 circuits - not one of the 'normal' four terminals.

There are hundreds (probably thousands) of 4-terminal smart meters running switched E7 supplies.

That's OK as long as the installer who comes to fit the smart meter has the appropriate external relay and can be bothered to do the extra work. Also, it means it isn't trivial to change between a single rate and multiple rate tariff if you want to switch appliances automatically to use the off peak. You would still need a meter installer to come out and fit the relay. (I do appreciate that this is unlikely to be relevant if the property didn't already have off-peak circuits.)

A quick review of various energy-related forums shows that, even if it is technically possible, many people are fobbed off with four terminal meters and no auxiliary relay, or are simply told by their supplier they can't have a smart meter with E7. It just makes me glad this is one issue I don't have to worry about, no longer living in a flat.

[Deleted User]

jrawle said:

[Deleted User] said:

jrawle said:

While it's true that any smart meter can be reprogrammed to offer an E7 tariff, I believe if you want it to be able to switch on a separate circuit during off-peak times for your storage heaters as I described above, you need to have a five terminal smart meter installed. I understand from reading threads on here that these are in short supply, and that some suppliers attempt to fob people off and fit a standard smart meter. Together with the eventual switching off of the radio signal, this makes me glad I no longer have a property that requires E7!

You don't.  We've been through this on other threads.  There is an auxiliary control terminal on a smart meter than can operate an external switch for the E7 circuits - not one of the 'normal' four terminals.

There are hundreds (probably thousands) of 4-terminal smart meters running switched E7 supplies.

That's OK as long as the installer who comes to fit the smart meter has the appropriate external relay and can be bothered to do the extra work. Also, it means it isn't trivial to change between a single rate and multiple rate tariff if you want to switch appliances automatically to use the off peak. You would still need a meter installer to come out and fit the relay. (I do appreciate that this is unlikely to be relevant if the property didn't already have off-peak circuits.)

A quick review of various energy-related forums shows that, even if it is technically possible, many people are fobbed off with four terminal meters and no auxiliary relay, or are simply told by their supplier they can't have a smart meter with E7. It just makes me glad this is one issue I don't have to worry about, no longer living in a flat.

Which is roughly the point that we were discussing.  Or rather the opposite - whether you could just run the off-peak items on peak electricity and then just bill it as off-peak energy at the supplier's end.