Mail online article about how the rolling blackouts will be planned and implemented.

[Deleted User]

Chrysalis said:

LilacPotato said:

Hello, 

I don't post much on here (but I read it a lot!) so not sure I can post links but there is a website called powercut105. com where you can enter your postcode to find both your DNO and your load block number. For anyone with extra time to spare perhaps with some time entering postcodes we can find out where we should move to to be a J!

I have checked all family and friends postcodes plus a bunch of random one's, everyone was either P or S both dumpster blocks. Looks like most of my city will be off for 15 hours over the weekend lol.

I then checked some post codes in nice village areas.  All were either D or G, it would seem these blocks are quite large.  I checked 19 post codes across 3 neighbouring villages all D, then another 21 from some villages on other side of city all G.

That DNO is probably allocating blocks either at 11kV or even 33kV level.

doodling

Hi,

Chrysalis said:

LilacPotato said:

Hello, 

I don't post much on here (but I read it a lot!) so not sure I can post links but there is a website called powercut105. com where you can enter your postcode to find both your DNO and your load block number. For anyone with extra time to spare perhaps with some time entering postcodes we can find out where we should move to to be a J!

I have checked all family and friends postcodes plus a bunch of random one's, everyone was either P or S both dumpster blocks. Looks like most of my city will be off for 15 hours over the weekend lol.

Under what circumstance do you expect that to happen?  I can't think of any circumstance (other than major war inducing things like attacks on our North Sea gas infrastructure) where long weekend interruptions are likely - did you have something in mind?

I then checked some post codes in nice village areas.  All were either D or G, it would seem these blocks are quite large.  I checked 19 post codes across 3 neighbouring villages all D, then another 21 from some villages on other side of city all G.

The split will, as SparkyGrad says, be dependent on the arrangement of the distribution network.  The switching in the network is not very granular (there is usually no need to switch it off!) - if there are any disconnections they will cover a relatively large area, the physical size being determined by the amount of loading in that area - e.g. city centre disconnection blocks will be significantly geographically smaller than rural disconnection blocks.

Robin9

Some electricity circuits are quite short, less than Km but could well supply 5000 consumers; rural circuits can be over 20 Km and supply dozens of villages or hamlets with under 1000 consumers.  What matters with load shedding is the load involved not geographic area or numbers of customers involved.

SAC2334

[Deleted User] said:

Astria said:

deano2099 said:

Thinking about it, if there's no power, will the timer on an old E7 meter keep ticking? I'd assume any battery backup is long dead, if it existed in the first place? So if the power went out on the evening rate, it'd come back on and think it was still evening surely?

Didn't the old E7 meters change tariff based on a radio signal? Kinda surprised nobody worked out how to hack it.

Looking at the chart, it appears that Thursday evenings I need to go down the pub, but the other days I can just stay in bed until the power comes back on

Radio teleswitch meters did (and still do - they're not dead yet).  Others had external mechanical timers or timers integrated into the meter (which is what smart meters have).

Some are good with power cuts and time changes.  Some are terrible.

It's certainly possible for a timer to 'pause' during a power cut and then only resume when the power is back on - shifting the customer's off-peak period.  There are people whose off-peak periods have ended up in the day.

I ve been to a few streets  in power cuts and all the digital meters were blank screen  , but resumed ok when power returned on. I know some digital meters stay blank and never return , prob due to a power surge  

Chrysalis

doodling said:

Hi,

Chrysalis said:

LilacPotato said:

Hello, 

I don't post much on here (but I read it a lot!) so not sure I can post links but there is a website called powercut105. com where you can enter your postcode to find both your DNO and your load block number. For anyone with extra time to spare perhaps with some time entering postcodes we can find out where we should move to to be a J!

I have checked all family and friends postcodes plus a bunch of random one's, everyone was either P or S both dumpster blocks. Looks like most of my city will be off for 15 hours over the weekend lol.

Under what circumstance do you expect that to happen?  I can't think of any circumstance (other than major war inducing things like attacks on our North Sea gas infrastructure) where long weekend interruptions are likely - did you have something in mind?

I then checked some post codes in nice village areas.  All were either D or G, it would seem these blocks are quite large.  I checked 19 post codes across 3 neighbouring villages all D, then another 21 from some villages on other side of city all G.

The split will, as SparkyGrad says, be dependent on the arrangement of the distribution network.  The switching in the network is not very granular (there is usually no need to switch it off!) - if there are any disconnections they will cover a relatively large area, the physical size being determined by the amount of loading in that area - e.g. city centre disconnection blocks will be significantly geographically smaller than rural disconnection blocks.

Postcodes I checked in city were all in different parts of it not neighbouring streets, I checked over 40.  Could not find any that were not P or S.

doodling

Hi,

That isn't unusual, it is quite possible that a single substation covers quite a large area.

If you look at National Grid - Network Capacity Map Application (which covers the old Western Power Distribution area) or the equivalent for your local DNO you can see the approximate geographic areas covered by each 33kV or 11kV substation.  The output of each substation may or may not be subdivided further within that geographic area for demand disconnection purposes.  If it is divided, it is unlikely to be divided into more than 5 or 6 areas.  You need a little bit of knowledge to interpret the data but it gives an idea.  As SparkyGrad says, switching will be at an 11kV or 33kV circuit level which will drop out power over quite a wide area - it won't be anything like street by street.

Just for clarity, the substations I refer to above are where the 11kV or 33kV supplies are split to feed the street level substations that provide the 230/400V supplies to homes and businesses, not the relatively small things you find in a corner of someone's garden or slotted between some garages.

QrizB

doodling said:

If you look at National Grid - Network Capacity Map Application (which covers the old Western Power Distribution area) or the equivalent for your local DNO you can see the approximate geographic areas covered by each 33kV or 11kV substation. 

And if you enjoy that sort of thing, the Open Infrastructure Map is fascinating:

https://openinframap.org/

Although if you're the frustrated dictator of a former superpower I guess it might give you ideas of where to target your short-range ballistic missiles ...

deano2099

Deleted_User said:

deano2099 said:

EssexHebridean said:

deano2099 said:

Thinking about it, if there's no power, will the timer on an old E7 meter keep ticking? I'd assume any battery backup is long dead, if it existed in the first place? So if the power went out on the evening rate, it'd come back on and think it was still evening surely?

Our meter is around 10 years old if I recall correctly - previous power outages don't seem to have affected it - there is already a small amount of drift but you kind expect that over 10 years, so I assume the backup battery is still functioning OK. You do seem to be thinking of E7 systems as some sort of archaic set-up from the 1950s, with meters in a similar age-bracket though Deano - it's perfectly possible to have a modern E7 Smart Meter, running modern storage heaters! 

That's a fair point! I know there are modern systems, but are there actually modern systems that are hardwired to the E7 tarrif as you've mentioned? That's the bit I can't square in my head. The idea of a smart meter *and* the inability to run them outside of the cheap rate. It feels like that bit would have been made "smart" - and where there are smart meters, there presumably exists the ability to programme them to run on the lower rate following a power cut at energy company level? I feel like once smart meters come into the equation, there's loads of ways around this (providing the energy companies actually act in a fair way) - whereas I do see more difficult problems for those without them. By all means tell me I'm wrong! You're correct in that my only experience with E7 was on a an older analogue meter.

Yes - any system that was installed in the old way but has had the meter replaced.  You don't rewire your house when you change your meter.  The E7 timer in many smart meters is firmware - not a supplier-programmed function - so you can't just change the times like that, and even when you can, are suppliers really going to reprogramme everyone's meters one direction following a power cut and then back again straight after?

Wow, fair enough, that's crazy. I guess if it requires a major rewire that fair enough. I guess even though you could theoretically use a smart meter as the controller for the heating, it wouldn't be wise.
My latter point was more that if you don't have a system where the storage heaters are hardwired to the E7 timer, then it's just a billing exercise to charge E7 rates for 2am-9am instead of 11am-6am instead if there's a smart meter involved as it can report usage over those times.

deano2099

EssexHebridean said:

Thanks Sparky - eloquently put. I'd not realised that there really were still some people who genuinely thought that E7 and NSH's was some sort of antiquated system that is only used by people in dusty cobwebby old houses in the back of beyond who've had their meter since it was installed back in the 1960's...! Sure, it's not AS common, but certainly TOU tariffs are still very much a thing - off the top of my head I can think of two that are largely dying out now - E10 and THTC (that one being mostly found north of the border and becoming increasingly problematic) then E7 which is gaining again in popularity where people have realised it works for battery storage, and then all the various EV tariffs of course. Then you also have things like Octopus Agile, GEUK's "Tide" etc... TOU is the future, not the past IMO.

I agree with you on TOU tariffs. My points come from the opposite direction actually, I'd assumed most E7-designed installations *were* more modern and less antiquated. Having a device in your home hardwired to a timer that you have no control over and literally can't power outside of those times *is* what I see as antiquated. I'd assumed we had moved on from that! 
The future is in these modern, dynamic TOU tariffs, but I feel like the sort of systems we're discussing here won't be able to deal with those. As SparkyGrad mentioned, reprogramming the E7 timings even on smart meters is a difficult job, not worth doing as a result of a power cut, if it can be done at all. So certainly can't be done for a dynamic system where the low-tariff times change throughout the year or even on a daily basis. Nor would they be able to handle systems with more than two tariffs.

[Deleted User]

deano2099 said:

Deleted_User said:

deano2099 said:

EssexHebridean said:

deano2099 said:

Thinking about it, if there's no power, will the timer on an old E7 meter keep ticking? I'd assume any battery backup is long dead, if it existed in the first place? So if the power went out on the evening rate, it'd come back on and think it was still evening surely?

Our meter is around 10 years old if I recall correctly - previous power outages don't seem to have affected it - there is already a small amount of drift but you kind expect that over 10 years, so I assume the backup battery is still functioning OK. You do seem to be thinking of E7 systems as some sort of archaic set-up from the 1950s, with meters in a similar age-bracket though Deano - it's perfectly possible to have a modern E7 Smart Meter, running modern storage heaters! 

That's a fair point! I know there are modern systems, but are there actually modern systems that are hardwired to the E7 tarrif as you've mentioned? That's the bit I can't square in my head. The idea of a smart meter *and* the inability to run them outside of the cheap rate. It feels like that bit would have been made "smart" - and where there are smart meters, there presumably exists the ability to programme them to run on the lower rate following a power cut at energy company level? I feel like once smart meters come into the equation, there's loads of ways around this (providing the energy companies actually act in a fair way) - whereas I do see more difficult problems for those without them. By all means tell me I'm wrong! You're correct in that my only experience with E7 was on a an older analogue meter.

Yes - any system that was installed in the old way but has had the meter replaced.  You don't rewire your house when you change your meter.  The E7 timer in many smart meters is firmware - not a supplier-programmed function - so you can't just change the times like that, and even when you can, are suppliers really going to reprogramme everyone's meters one direction following a power cut and then back again straight after?

Wow, fair enough, that's crazy. I guess if it requires a major rewire that fair enough. I guess even though you could theoretically use a smart meter as the controller for the heating, it wouldn't be wise.
My latter point was more that if you don't have a system where the storage heaters are hardwired to the E7 timer, then it's just a billing exercise to charge E7 rates for 2am-9am instead of 11am-6am instead if there's a smart meter involved as it can report usage over those times.

Most E7 metering arrangements, including smart meters and regardless of the wiring, rely on recording usage into two different registers (think the old-fashioned number dials but electronic).  Which register is 'live' and counting up at any time determines whether you are paying peak or off-peak prices, and that is controlled by the timer (or the firmware) and tariff settings.  At the supplier end, they just get these two totals and apply the relevant price.  Changing which hours you apply the rates for would require changing which register the meter was recording into.  That isn't a billing exercise, that's a meter reprogramming exercise.

It is only very rare modern ToU tariffs that actually take the 30-minute data into the billing system to be able to decide what price to charge at each slot.