Economy 7 and ending of RTS (Radio Teleswitch Service)

Scot_39

arlowood said:

Hi Folks

Looking to tap into the collective wisdom of the contributors to this thread.

Currently with So Energy and in the past 6 months or so I have been receiving increasingly frequent and potentially doom laden emails about the need for me to arrange for the installation of a new Smart Meter. They claim that their records show that I have a meter that relies on the RTS system and this is due to switched off at the end of March 2024.

According to them my meter uses the RTS system to control the on and off switching of my central heating and hot water systems. This puzzles me as I have a perfectly adequate Drayton Lifestyle Dual Channel programmer that takes care of these functions quite happily on its own.

I am on a dual tariff for my electricity with an Economy 7 and a standard rate. From memory I think the Economy 7 rate kicks in around midnight and lasts until about 7am. I presume that the switching of the rates is handled internally within the meter as I don't see any hardware or text on the meter that says that it relies on the RTS system.

I have included a pic of my meter below and would appreciate any help in identifying whether it does or does not rely on RTS to function.

Thanks in advance

Believe these have been rebranded as Landis+Gyr - for well over a decade now - the branding for the firm that took on Ampy.

https://www.landisgyr.com/webfoo/wp-content/uploads/product-files/5246_Technical_Specification11.pdf

No mentions of RTS in the comms section of the spec.  YOu might want to read the rest.  Doesnt mean it hasn't - just that it's not listed there.

But you could send that back to supplier with the question to see if it matches their records for your home.

But they are getting on a bit so maybe coming to end of certification - 20 years on that spec from 2008 ? - as yours has the old Ampy branding - when was it installed - guessing that sticker is Dec 07 - so got maybe 4 years max anyway.

And also you appear not even to be using the meter switching anyway - their should be a 5th tail port to the RHS of the 4 you are using - for a switched output - so must be relying on a matched external timer to match your meter tariff switching.

Seen a recent poster with that meter only using the switched port - for his heating only - as a second meter - and there was a clear physical gap iirc.

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/80274740/#Comment_80274740

Edit - But just because you aren't using the timer switiching - RTS meters can alsoupdate the tariff switching times and periodically fix any drift in the on board digitial timing circuits / clocks.

But most suppliers can replace one E7 meter with another - so wouldn't particularly panic about them getting it wrong - but if your objection is re Smart metering - that might be another issue.

The meter model itself is mentioned in several other threads here - you might want to review those for any mention of RTS

QrizB

arlowood said:

I am on a dual tariff for my electricity with an Economy 7 and a standard rate. From memory I think the Economy 7 rate kicks in around midnight and lasts until about 7am. I presume that the switching of the rates is handled internally within the meter as I don't see any hardware or text on the meter that says that it relies on the RTS system.

The good news is that, unless I'm much mistaken, you do not have a RTS meter. That meter has its own internal clock and a fifth port for E7-only loads.

The slightly less good news is that you don't appear to have anything attached to the fifth port. You're relying on the clock in the Drayton programmer to be *perfectly* synchronised with the E7 clock on your meter, otherwise you'll find yourself running your heating and hot water on peak rate electricity.

Do you know the times that your meter switches? Not the times for your region, or the times your supplier tells you, but the actual times for your specific meter?

Can I also ask a mostly unrelated question -what sort of heating system do you have?

Qyburn

QrizB said:

The slightly less good news is that you don't appear to have anything attached to the fifth port. You're relying on the clock in the Drayton programmer to be *perfectly* synchronised with the E7 clock on your meter, otherwise you'll find yourself running your heating and hot water on peak rate electricity.

Also there may be a time zone mismatch. Almost all heating programmers adjust for BST, so if you set something to come on at 09:00 then in Winter that will be 09:00 GMT and in Summer 09:00 BST (08:00 GMT) without the user having to reset anything.

Some (most, all?) Economy 7 timings stay with GMT, giving for example 23:00-06:00 which in Summer would be 00:00-07:00 BST.

If Economy 7 switched time zones you'd get only six hours on the day the clocks go forward, eight hours when they go back. Unless they exclude the time from 01:00-02:00.

arlowood

QrizB said:

arlowood said:

I am on a dual tariff for my electricity with an Economy 7 and a standard rate. From memory I think the Economy 7 rate kicks in around midnight and lasts until about 7am. I presume that the switching of the rates is handled internally within the meter as I don't see any hardware or text on the meter that says that it relies on the RTS system.

The good news is that, unless I'm much mistaken, you do not have a RTS meter. That meter has its own internal clock and a fifth port for E7-only loads.

The slightly less good news is that you don't appear to have anything attached to the fifth port. You're relying on the clock in the Drayton programmer to be *perfectly* synchronised with the E7 clock on your meter, otherwise you'll find yourself running your heating and hot water on peak rate electricity.

Do you know the times that your meter switches? Not the times for your region, or the times your supplier tells you, but the actual times for your specific meter?

Can I also ask a mostly unrelated question -what sort of heating system do you have?

HI QrizB

I have gas fired central heating powered by a Worcester Bosch Greenstar Ri Condensing Boiler. System is controlled by a Drayton Lifestyle Dual Channel controller.

Also we don't  schedule and major appliances (washing machines, dishwashers etc) to run during the Economy 7 time slot

QrizB

arlowood said:

I have gas fired central heating powered by a Worcester Bosch Greenstar Ri Condensing Boiler. System is controlled by a Drayton Lifestyle Dual Channel controller.
Also we don't  schedule and major appliances (washing machines, dishwashers etc) to run during the Economy 7 time slot

OK, so why do you have Economy 7 at all? You might find that you would save money by switching to the single rate version of your tariff.

In a typical year, how much peak rate electricity do you use, and how much cheap rate?

Gerry1

The good news is that @arlowood won't need to change the meter if single rate works out cheaper than Economy 7, as it almost certainly will.

https://help.so.energy/support/solutions/articles/7000046262

arlowood

QrizB said:

arlowood said:

I have gas fired central heating powered by a Worcester Bosch Greenstar Ri Condensing Boiler. System is controlled by a Drayton Lifestyle Dual Channel controller.
Also we don't  schedule and major appliances (washing machines, dishwashers etc) to run during the Economy 7 time slot

OK, so why do you have Economy 7 at all? You might find that you would save money by switching to the single rate version of your tariff.

In a typical year, how much peak rate electricity do you use, and how much cheap rate?

My current fixed tariff deal ends on 20th Sept and So Energy have offered the So Juniper 12 month fixed rate as the only option I can choose other than their standard variable rates.

The quote for the So Juniper appears to indicate that the electricity is charged at one rate only (29.34p/kWh)

My current tariff has a Day rate of 18.49p/kWh and a night rate of 13.18p/kWh. So in essence a single rate of 29.34p/kWh will end up marginally cheaper. 

My estimated usage is 1853.6kWh in the daytime rate and 432.3kWh at night. So less than 20% of my total annual electricity usage is at the Night rate

inspectorperez

"My current tariff has a Day rate of 18.49p/kWh and a night rate of 13.18p/kWh. So in essence a single rate of 29.34p/kWh will end up marginally cheaper."

Am I missing something with this logic? Surely as the single rate is higher than both day and night rates, you will be paying more assuming your combined kWh are in the region of 2200-2300?

arlowood

inspectorperez said:

"My current tariff has a Day rate of 18.49p/kWh and a night rate of 13.18p/kWh. So in essence a single rate of 29.34p/kWh will end up marginally cheaper."

Am I missing something with this logic? Surely as the single rate is higher than both day and night rates, you will be paying more assuming your combined kWh are in the region of 2200-2300?

Yes - you are correct. I can only plead geriatric brain fade. The existing rates are from 2 years ago when we opted for  a 24 months fix. Just shows the impact of the energy price increases in the interim.

Scot_39

arlowood said:

QrizB said:

arlowood said:

I have gas fired central heating powered by a Worcester Bosch Greenstar Ri Condensing Boiler. System is controlled by a Drayton Lifestyle Dual Channel controller.
Also we don't  schedule and major appliances (washing machines, dishwashers etc) to run during the Economy 7 time slot

OK, so why do you have Economy 7 at all? You might find that you would save money by switching to the single rate version of your tariff.

In a typical year, how much peak rate electricity do you use, and how much cheap rate?

My current fixed tariff deal ends on 20th Sept and So Energy have offered the So Juniper 12 month fixed rate as the only option I can choose other than their standard variable rates.

The quote for the So Juniper appears to indicate that the electricity is charged at one rate only (29.34p/kWh)

My current tariff has a Day rate of 18.49p/kWh and a night rate of 13.18p/kWh. So in essence a single rate of 29.34p/kWh will end up marginally cheaper. 

My estimated usage is 1853.6kWh in the daytime rate and 432.3kWh at night. So less than 20% of my total annual electricity usage is at the Night rate

20% is normally nowhere near enough to be on E7 rates.

You might want to get SO E7 for comparison - and compare with others - as their is no one fixed day / night rate split.

Unless you are maintaining for say a near future EV upgrade that is going to significantly upgrade that night rate share - a switch to SR may be worthwhile. And even if are - there may be better EV specific tariff options.

It on the face of it seems strange you are being offered a single rate fixed single rate of  29.xx p - to replace a dual rate E7 fix.  Perhaps they have in your case genuinely(*) done that to help or at your request.

(I get suggestions to move to SR from E10 - normally in summer months - but in the past - as a 75%-80% off peak user over the full year - when I do the maths - they aren't in the end cheaper at all.)

But at 20% - you could end up as you say paying a few pence more on average cf SR - depending on how agressive SO E7 day night rate split is.

Taking just one EDF example (as one of few who publish regional prices openly) - EM DD

SR SC 50.71p 26.76p/kWh

E7 SC50.70p D 34.48p N 13.78p.  At 20% thats an average of  30.34p - 3.58p - 13% more than the SR