So the discretionary fund is.....**drumroll**.......£100 measly quid!?

NedS

Apodemus said:

400ixl said:

You can't separate price from help without taking both into consideration and calculating the overall cost.

Yes you can.  Help is help, cost is cost. I already agreed that oil is currently the cheapest option, but you suggested that oil users were getting more help than those heating with gas or electricity, which is just plain wrong.

Let's assume everyone is getting the £400, since very few households are not on the electricity grid.  In addition to that, the average user is getting the cost of their 2,900 kWh electricity subsidised by about £490 (using my local svr price).  The average gas user is getting their 12,000 kWh subsidised by about £504.  If that 12,000 kWh was provided by electric heating, the subsidy rises by about £1920. If it is provided by oil, it is (possibly) £100.

Taking all the subsidies together (and using the mythical "average" consumption) we get the following "help" from the Government:

Dual-fuel Electric + gas:  £400 + £490 + £504 = £1394

Fully Electric:  £400 + £490 + £1920 = £2810

Dual-fuel Electric + oil:  £400 + £490 + £100 = £990

These are all huge sums of support and, somewhere down the line, Government is going to become very unpopular when it tries to unwind all this.

It may all unwind naturally over time. I think the hope is that the price of gas will have somewhat returned to more reasonable levels within the two year time frame of the (residential) Energy Price Cap. Or maybe they have a plan to (partially) decouple electricity prices from the price of gas - a two tier system where renewable (wind + solar + biomass) and nuclear are priced separately from gas-fired power station generation (about 45% of our generation came from gas in the last 12 months), which would insulate against any price shock for future volatility in gas prices.

Spoonie_Turtle

Apodemus said:

400ixl said:

You can't separate price from help without taking both into consideration and calculating the overall cost.

Yes you can.  Help is help, cost is cost. I already agreed that oil is currently the cheapest option, but you suggested that oil users were getting more help than those heating with gas or electricity, which is just plain wrong.

Let's assume everyone is getting the £400, since very few households are not on the electricity grid.  In addition to that, the average user is getting the cost of their 2,900 kWh electricity subsidised by about £490 (using my local svr price).  The average gas user is getting their 12,000 kWh subsidised by about £504.  If that 12,000 kWh was provided by electric heating, the subsidy rises by about £1920. If it is provided by oil, it is (possibly) £100.

Taking all the subsidies together (and using the mythical "average" consumption) we get the following "help" from the Government:

Dual-fuel Electric + gas:  £400 + £490 + £504 = £1394

Fully Electric:  £400 + £490 + £1920 = £2810

Dual-fuel Electric + oil:  £400 + £490 + £100 = £990

These are all huge sums of support and, somewhere down the line, Government is going to become very unpopular when it tries to unwind all this.

It gets complicated to compare all-electric because no household anywhere near average uses 12,000kWh electric, let alone the extra 2,900 on top.  Economy 7 rates are calculated on a 'typical' annual consumption of 4,200 kWh, I believe.  That's realistically on the low side but then the Ofgem typical household containing 2.4 people (if British Gas are to be believed*) is also on the low side.

*https://www.britishgas.co.uk/energy/guides/average-bill.html

Apodemus

Spoonie_Turtle said:

Apodemus said:

400ixl said:

You can't separate price from help without taking both into consideration and calculating the overall cost.

Yes you can.  Help is help, cost is cost. I already agreed that oil is currently the cheapest option, but you suggested that oil users were getting more help than those heating with gas or electricity, which is just plain wrong.

Let's assume everyone is getting the £400, since very few households are not on the electricity grid.  In addition to that, the average user is getting the cost of their 2,900 kWh electricity subsidised by about £490 (using my local svr price).  The average gas user is getting their 12,000 kWh subsidised by about £504.  If that 12,000 kWh was provided by electric heating, the subsidy rises by about £1920. If it is provided by oil, it is (possibly) £100.

Taking all the subsidies together (and using the mythical "average" consumption) we get the following "help" from the Government:

Dual-fuel Electric + gas:  £400 + £490 + £504 = £1394

Fully Electric:  £400 + £490 + £1920 = £2810

Dual-fuel Electric + oil:  £400 + £490 + £100 = £990

These are all huge sums of support and, somewhere down the line, Government is going to become very unpopular when it tries to unwind all this.

It gets complicated to compare all-electric because no household anywhere near average uses 12,000kWh electric, let alone the extra 2,900 on top.  Economy 7 rates are calculated on a 'typical' annual consumption of 4,200 kWh, I believe.  That's realistically on the low side but then the Ofgem typical household containing 2.4 people (if British Gas are to be believed*) is also on the low side.

*https://www.britishgas.co.uk/energy/guides/average-bill.html

Yes, it also ignores the fact that most electric heating is presumably nearly 100% efficient (or perhaps more with a GSHP), while I'm guessing that the average gas CH system will be around 90% and the average oil system probably in the low 80s.  

GrumpyDil

Just in case anyone interested boilerjuice just quoted me 408 for 500 litres PE8 area on urgent delivery. Oddly much higher on normal delivery. 

GrumpyDil

GrumpyDil said:

Just in case anyone interested boilerjuice just quoted me 408 for 500 litres PE8 area on urgent delivery. Oddly much higher on normal delivery. 

And back up to 461 this morning. I'd suggest anyone wanting to buy just keeps a very close eye on the prices and orders when they look acceptably expensive as opposed to extremely expensive. 

pinkteapot

Leaving aside the ridiculousness of the government apparently being unable to distribute the £100 to oil households... Why can't they get it out there for bulk LPG customers? We ARE in contract with suppliers, like we would be for mains gas, so why aren't suppliers crediting it to accounts? 

NedS

pinkteapot said:

Leaving aside the ridiculousness of the government apparently being unable to distribute the £100 to oil households... Why can't they get it out there for bulk LPG customers? We ARE in contract with suppliers, like we would be for mains gas, so why aren't suppliers crediting it to accounts? 

Because maybe due to the highlighted difficulties of doing it through (oil) suppliers, they will not implement it through supplies at all, and will choose a completely different mechanism. Whatever system they choose, it has to work for everyone (or the vast majority as some will always lose out).

What we all agree is how ridiculous it is that the Government have announced a scheme with absolutely no thought or pre-planning on how it will be implemented. I think with recent events, they are now so used to dishing out huge handouts, they just assumed the bods in the handouts department will figure it out.

Qyburn

Apodemus said:

Taking all the subsidies together (and using the mythical "average" consumption) we get the following "help" from the Government:

Dual-fuel Electric + gas:  £400 + £490 + £504 = £1394
Fully Electric:  £400 + £490 + £1920 = £2810
Dual-fuel Electric + oil:  £400 + £490 + £100 = £990

These are all huge sums of support and, somewhere down the line, Government is going to become very unpopular when it tries to unwind all this.

The EPG is supposed to remain in place for two years, making the total subsidies  ..

Electric/Gas = £2,388

Electricity/Oil = £1,480

So currently oil costs less than gas on a per kWh basis, but it's too early to say whether it will be £904 less over the next two years.

kassy64

I received a letter from Flogas this morning about an increase to my standing charge for bulk LPG, at the bottom of the letter they are still stating the following :
"Off grid households will benefit from an additional £100 payment. We're yet to receive full details on how this additional payment will be made and will confirm once details are released".
So, even the suppliers are in the dark as much as us. 

Getting_greyer

FGS here we go: OPEC to cut output by 2 million barrels a day.  Estimated real terms cut to production of 1%.  

Edit* https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-63149044