Bi-wiring speakers. Really?!

Bendy_House

Just been looking at what bi-wiring entails, as I'm toying with getting hold of some new speakers. Hmm, cynical antennae were twitching madly, certainly when it was recommended for use with amps not equipped with a 'bi' output. Ie, the suggestion you should just run two sets of cables from the single channel of the amp.

Some reviews really got on my goat, such as:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UKg29XH0EnY

At 7:15 to 7:30, he diss'ed the 'weakest point' flat metal bridges as they "deteriorate the sound quality sooo much...". Hmmm.

I'd love to see a spectrum analysis of the audio outputs when driven via these blades, and then through his recommended bridging cables. As a non-betting person, I'd still hand over a £enner is there was a blind bit of signal difference to be measured.

Anyone with any genuine experience of this?!

Norman_Castle

If a company manufacturing £85k speakers fit them rather than a custom made short connector you have to question why they do so.

My bridges have been there for 25 years, if I get bored I might try swapping them for speaker wire although I suspect coating them with snake oil may improve the sound. It would have to be expensive snake oil, not the cheap stuff.

GDB2222

Have you changed the house wiring to low oxygen?

prowla

A decent Hi-Fi shop would be happy to demonstrate the setup to you.

As for spectrum analysis, it will tell you absolutely nothing as to whether a system sounds good to you.

The assertion of bi-wiring is that the cables will affect the sound, so splitting the signal paths at the amp end will give a different sound to it all running down the same one.

The downside of bi-wiring is that you need double the cables, so that could cost (significant) money.

There's a lot of snake-oil in Hi-Fi, but there are also some things which are true.

(There are also some things which seem true but are only in your head.)

Bendy_House

prowla said:

A decent Hi-Fi shop would be happy to demonstrate the setup to you.

As for spectrum analysis, it will tell you absolutely nothing as to whether a system sounds good to you.

The assertion of bi-wiring is that the cables will affect the sound, so splitting the signal paths at the amp end will give a different sound to it all running down the same one.

The downside of bi-wiring is that you need double the cables, so that could cost (significant) money.

There's a lot of snake-oil in Hi-Fi, but there are also some things which are true.

(There are also some things which seem true but are only in your head.)

Yes, a decent HiFi shop would demonstrate the two setups. And I'm still happy to bet that £enner that there would be no audible difference - only in one's head (meta, not lit).

Of course, a spectrum analysis won't tell you if a system sounds good to you, but I meant that it would/should sort out whether there is a difference in actual sound produced by the speakers with an identical source, but only wired differently. For the guy on YouTube to proclaim as seeming fact that two flat solid metal bridges were the 'weakest point' as they would "deteriorate the sound quality sooo much..." is, I believe, utter bunkum. It's quite a claim by him, and with all such strong claims should come strong evidence. Even weak will do; a spectrum analysis would indicate if there was any actual difference in the outputted signals from the speakers. And I'm pretty confident it wouldn't show any. If it cannot, then your ears ditto.

Absolutely, there is a shed-load of snake oil in HiFi circles, and I'm also pretty sure that the thickness and 'purity' of cables is one that's overdone by a large margin. I do get that, at atomic level, electrons flowing through cables can behave in unexpected ways, such as concentrating around the wire strand outers at higher frequencies (it was something like that - it was a looong time ago that I read it), but to suggest that at the voltage and current levels that drive a 100W domestic speaker system any of this would be audible, is again - I believe, until evidence provided to the contrary - also complete and utter bunkum. Obviously, a cable would need to be sized to carry the load, or else resistance could become an problem. On the 'purity' issue, tho', what metal is used extensively throughout the circuits to pass these HiFi signals? Yup, lead solder, or its modern equivalent. And solder DOES make the actual electrical connections, right up to power-amp and output stages; remove the solder, and you won't get sound. Oxygen-free ma botty.

Again, remove the subjective, and provide the evidence. (That's aimed at these claims, Prowla, not at you. Thank you for your comments.)

I'm sure HiFi shops get largely positive responses from customers when comparing bi-wiring or super-sized-oxy-free-cables, but I also suspect it would be a 50:50 result if they didn't actually tell the customer in advance which was being trialled.

Cynical? Not really. Just an evidence-based, ex-science & tech teacher.

It's a fascinating subject, but as much to do with psychology as physics. Imo.

Username03725

Ah, this old conundrum. Welcome Bendy_House to the world of smoke, mirrors and snake oil. Or for some of us, hifi. You join a queue of cynical punters questioning how a wire can make a difference that goes back 50 or 60 years, maybe more.

I use Naim gear, and Naim specifically advise against bi-wiring mainly because the speaker cable contributes to the impedance and inductance of the amp's output stage. They recommend a min length of about 4m, and for most of their amps to use NACA5 cable.

Here you go, I found a quote 

...require[s] a cable that provides a nominal inductance along with a low capacitance, something that NACA5 ideally provides, subject to a minimum 3.5m length per channel

Other manufacturers will have a different approach and I presume other manufacturers will have their own opinion on bi-wiring.

Despite Naim not recommending bi-wiring there is a lot of on-going discussion on their forum on the merits or otherwise of using the same speaker cable for the speaker jumpers. The consensus seems to be that it's a good idea, and it does make sense. Different cables do give a different sound - I swapped my NACA5s for Chord cables a few years ago and didn't like them; a subsequent change to Witch Hat Phantoms after going back to the original A5s were a nice boost, in bass and clarity. And as my speakers (ATC SCM40) each have 3 pairs of speaker posts it would make sense to continue the whole electrical chain with the same cable. I haven't yet, but might. I doubt if it'd make a big difference, but it would be one more little thing that completes it.

Here's the thing... By the time you've spent what you spent on a Naim amp, Naim streamer, Naim pre-amp and Naim rack plus speaker cables, Powerlines and room dressing, any change of this nature is always going to be small. Diminishing returns & all that. Equally, if there's a thought in your head that it could be improved however slightly for v little additional outlay - and speaker jumpers are miniscule in the whole total - it'd be odd not to do that, if nothing else for peace of mind. The usual test is to implement a change or an upgrade, live with it for a few weeks and then take it out and see if you're missing anything.

In the end though, it's down to a personal choice and down to your own personality. If you need to be convinced and see it all as a con, step away - you won't be missing out and you'll be pleased you saved your cash and weren't conned by that deceptive hifi salesman. Equally if your system is tremendous but in your head you know there's a possible weak link that can easily be fixed, go for it. Most dealers do a 30-day money back thing for this sort of thing, so what have you got to lose?

You can argue electrical properties and demand evidence till the cows come home; in the end it's what your ears hear and what your own brain thinks in terms of being satisfied with it all or wondering if despite the outlay there's still a step further to be exploited. There's no right or wrong answer, just your own attitude and opinion.

Bendy_House

Welcome to you, too, Username.

Naim - that's high-end stuff indeed. Beautiful.

I do 'get' it - even with my much, much lower end HiFi, and with all the rationality I think I possess, I will still be drawn to tweaks that 'could' make a difference. Even tho' I know that, sonically, they won't. It feels good to have done this - giving it its best. Is the TT now fractionally more level? Is the stylus weight set spot-on? Should I try tweaking it further? Nailed it! It's bludy spot on!

Did it make a difference? Nah. Nope. Nada. Only in my head - I now feel I am getting the 'best out of it'. But that few-seconds of angle change, or that tiny fraction of a gram weight alteration, did sodall.

Perhaps you noticed the difference using these alternative speaker cables - I cannot possibly say you haven't. You swapped one set of very high quality and quite costly cables for another, but you didn't 'like' the new ones, how they sounded. So then you swapped these for some very costly, super-duper cables, and this gave a 'nice boost in clarity'. That's impressive - you detected the differences a selection of good thick cables make to the power output signal of an amp. I haven't done such a test myself, but - forgive me - I know what the result would be; I wouldn't notice a difference between them.

If a technician then setup up the highest quality mic coupled to the highest quality sonic spectrum gear, I'd be utterly gobsmacked if this picked up a 'difference' in the sound that came out of these speakers using your selection of cables. Or from reducing the length of one cable by a metre (it 'might' detect an infinitesimally small increase in volume, beyond human detection...). And, even if it did detect this, a human biologist would come in and tell me that the 'difference' detected is simply waaaay too small to be detected by the human organ.

So, I'm not saying that you cannot detect the difference, but I am suggesting that I - with ok ears - would not. And I am suggesting - slightly more shakily, I admit - that sensitive sonic equipment will also say, "Nope - nada difference".

It all comes down to what is more plausible. There could be lots of reasons why you seemingly hear the results differently with each set of cables, but I suspect very strongly that one of them is not because the sound is different.

The way to prove that is beyond this forum, but would consist of me setting up your Naim system with a random selection of speaker cables, one of which would be a length of 2.5mmT&E, and you have to rank them in order of what you like best.

Naim is fabulous stuff, no question, and no Naim owner is going to fit a length of bell wire to their speakers.

Username03725

Thanks BH; it is nice.

All I can say is that the change of speaker cable made a difference to the sound, as did the change from standard mains cable to Powerlines (Naim claim that the mechanical isolation has the impact though, not different electrical properties), or the change of interconnect from Naim's own to a 3rd party - didn't like it, got a refund. There is a discernible change; not great but not so subtle as to require the listener to perch in the exact spot listening out and thinking that there might well be a change . It was clearly noticeable, within the parameters of a sensible outlay relative to the total system cost and diminishing returns.

I'm sure it would be possible to attach a spectrum analyser and point to electrical differences, but personally I don't care enough to want to. As per previous post I'm satisfied that there is a difference and am happy that I'm listening knowing there isn't an extra step that could improve it but I haven't done it. I'd rather optimise the system with known available sensible upgrades.

But as above, there's no compulsion to do this, and being realistic bi-wiring a £399 jobby from Currys or worrying about speaker jumpers on same won't make a difference. 

One thing I can report - changing the mains cable on my Sky box to something called The Big Orange Mains Cable (eBay, £30) made such a difference to the picture that I had to redo the picture settings on the tv. Brightness, colour, contrast; all were suddenly more intense when I swapped the mains leads over, and had to be reset to make it just so. Cables do make a difference. Personally I'm not bothered enough to question it or to demand to know why; it's enough to make the change and know in my head that I'm getting the best out of the system.

Norman_Castle

Username03725 said:

One thing I can report - changing the mains cable on my Sky box to something called The Big Orange Mains Cable (eBay, £30) made such a difference to the picture that I had to redo the picture settings on the tv. Brightness, colour, contrast; all were suddenly more intense when I swapped mains lead over, and had to be reset to make it just so.

Did you try changing back to the original cable to see if the improvements could be undone?

Username03725

Hi Norman. Yes, I did, being so surprised at the difference it made to a run of the mill Sky Q box. I’d spent a long time getting the picture to be bang on, and the change of lead ruined it. Once I’d got it right again and got used to the now much better picture I did the swap back, and all the improvements were gone. A simple A / B comparison.

Olinda99

You need a blind  test - get a friend or whoever to wire it up but you don't know how - listen and and see what you think

Repeat several.times then analyst the results