Bi-wiring speakers. Really?!

Sandtree

Ozzig said:

Sandtree said:

Ozzig said:

In case I missed it whilst skimming through the prior 6 pages of posts, but, I don't think anyone has mentioned  ...

Doesn't bi-wiring bypass the individual speaker crossover circuits (or some of them?) - I'm a bit vague as it's been a long time since I researched it - pre-internet days  

In most of them no, given its just a metal plate connecting the two sets of terminals and so the crossover has no idea if the plate is in place, if the plate has been removed but replaced with bridging wires or its removed and replaced with bi-wiring or bi-amping. 

A minority have a switch or dial which in theory could change the electronics.

I always assumed the bridge plates connected the single source to both high and low cross-over gubbins.
So removing it and bi-wiring meant each one got their own connection to the amp, not that electrically it would make a lot of difference.
I have some oldish (20+ years) Castle's and used to bi-amp them with some Rotel power amps and from memory, bi-wiring made a bit of difference, richer high end

When you only have 1 source then the high and low will naturally all be driven by that source and so the question is how do you get the same signal to both terminals... a bridging plate, a 5cm bridging wire or bi-wiring. 

If you want to say an uninsulated plate isn't a good conductor then it begs the question why some very expensive speakers use them. I've also not seen the rationale from anyone why bi-wiring would be better than simply using a short piece of cable as a bridging wire (which is the recommended setup for my dream speakers that I'll never afford (or get pass the Mrs)).

Personally have done non-blind testing and thought the bi-wiring was better, did a crude blind test and couldn't tell the difference (aka got it wrong).

There is much more argument around the benefits of bi-amping.

Ozzig

Sandtree said:

Ozzig said:

Sandtree said:

Ozzig said:

In case I missed it whilst skimming through the prior 6 pages of posts, but, I don't think anyone has mentioned  ...

Doesn't bi-wiring bypass the individual speaker crossover circuits (or some of them?) - I'm a bit vague as it's been a long time since I researched it - pre-internet days  

In most of them no, given its just a metal plate connecting the two sets of terminals and so the crossover has no idea if the plate is in place, if the plate has been removed but replaced with bridging wires or its removed and replaced with bi-wiring or bi-amping. 

A minority have a switch or dial which in theory could change the electronics.

I always assumed the bridge plates connected the single source to both high and low cross-over gubbins.
So removing it and bi-wiring meant each one got their own connection to the amp, not that electrically it would make a lot of difference.
I have some oldish (20+ years) Castle's and used to bi-amp them with some Rotel power amps and from memory, bi-wiring made a bit of difference, richer high end

When you only have 1 source then the high and low will naturally all be driven by that source and so the question is how do you get the same signal to both terminals... a bridging plate, a 5cm bridging wire or bi-wiring. 

If you want to say an uninsulated plate isn't a good conductor then it begs the question why some very expensive speakers use them. I've also not seen the rationale from anyone why bi-wiring would be better than simply using a short piece of cable as a bridging wire (which is the recommended setup for my dream speakers that I'll never afford (or get pass the Mrs)).

Personally have done non-blind testing and thought the bi-wiring was better, did a crude blind test and couldn't tell the difference (aka got it wrong).

There is much more argument around the benefits of bi-amping.

As bi-wiring is taking two connections in parallel from the amp, one to each cross-over, it introduces twice the cable and changes the resistance, not massively, but more than a single plate/ short cable would. To me at the time there was definitely a better high-end - but 20+ years ago I didn't have tinnitus so I probably wouldn't notice now.

(Personally, I can't imagine there would be more than the smallest of differences between a wire/plate bridge electrically unless the posts have been done and un-done enough times to cause the plate to tarnish or corrode a bit.)

Bi-amping is the future, well it was in the late 80s / early 90s when I first discovered it  

Username03725

Thought I'd look in to see how it's going... Oh my word - talk about angry old men shouting at clouds... Ho ho ho. Come on chaps, get a grip. It's just audio. And video.

I refer you back to my first contribution, where I said

If you need to be convinced and see it all as a con, step away - you won't be missing out and you'll be pleased you saved your cash and weren't conned by that deceptive hifi salesman.

But no; it seems that each protagonist has to keep banging on getting ever more steamed up about something that doesn't really matter. 

Bendy_House said:

It is astonishing how this is 'allowed' to continue with so little challenge, and how what I assumed were respected and trusted HiFi reviewers are seemingly also be sucked in. (Yes, I mean the likes of you, WhatHiFi). (1)

I can understand possible reasons; not only to keep advertisers happy (the most cynical of) but also perhaps a more altruistic one - it's [sic] keeps lots of small, specialist companies going, and the whole larger aura of HiFi's Holy Grail. (2)

Like all other belief systems (that don't cause harm to others), folk can fill their boots. But they should also be prepared to either present evidence for their beliefs, or to grow a thicker skin. Or, simply keep it nice and quietly to themselves. (3)

(1) Allowed eh? Maybe the poor idiots like me who buy this stuff get it home and decide that they're quite happy with whatever they bought and it never occurs to pursue a complaint about something that gave a [perceived or otherwise] improvement. And the ones that don't, they return it and get the refund that's so normal this far into the 21st century.

(2) Is that a bad thing then? Suppliers providing stuff that people want to buy, but angry old men shouting at clouds insist No - this must not be allowed.

(3) I only got involved because I thought my experience might contribute to a humdrum internet forum. I didn't expect to be called a liar, stupid, to have it explained to me how Google could educate me on blind tests etc, or to be on the end of a dose of the ultimate in mansplaining being hurled my way by the angriest of the lot, the one who I note has already apologised for seeming to be "too keen to pick a fight with everyone" [nice one], as what I experienced is apparently a physical impossibility.

I'm out; you chaps carry on shouting into the wilderness.

But before I go, here's the actual text from the Big Orange Lead website:

Here are the facts
Visual; Deeper blacks; finer detail, more vivid colours and clarity; greater contrast; more depth, creating almost 3D picture; better able to follow the action; more engrossing; more light.
Audio: clearer centre channel/speech detail; deeper and stronger bass; greater separation; more expansive surround sound; more involving soundtrack; better able to follow the dialogue; greater dynamics; wider more holographic 360 soundstage; bigger/bolder drama
Why is this possible? The use of better more highly screened conductor material ensures faster processing and less 'noise' interference;

The absolute nerve of them, putting it in black & white on their website, in contradiction of all advertising rules (probably). 

Fill your boots Bendy; you want to put a stop to this sort of absolute filth yeah? Here's the ASA Complaints website. I look forward to seeing you nominating Ecosse Cables for their blatant lies concerning things that our chum Ergates is absolutely and utterly convinced just cannot happen. I mean, he told me; my eyes are no more - unreliable, unseeing, just wrong. That's a shame, I was about to watch the TdF in HD on this lovey vibrant OLED tv fed by a Sky box with a special mains lead. And now I realise that what I was seeing just cannot exist. Oh no.

Speaking of Er 'Never Knowingly Right' Gates, I see here...

Ergates said

I believe that the main reason there hasn't been a clamp down on these snake oil suppliers is that they're mostly targeting people wealthy enough to be able to waste £3000 on a magic power lead.

that my £30 lead has magically become a £3000 magic power lead. Nothing like a bit of exaggeration eh in a desperate attempt to make a point? But I'll concede that a stereo that'd cost over £50k if I marched into a shop today to buy it does make a £500 Powerline buttons in comparison. Maybe you should pop round and have a listen Ergates. I'll show you the Big Orange Lead too, in and out. 

And finally, in another desperate attempt to do a bit of getting onside with the cynics...

Heedtheadvice said:

For anyone who believes a mains cable (faults excepted) makes a big difference, as yourself why the professionals do not use such cables.

Why? Because the recording engineer, the artist, and the producer, all are sat in front of a mixing desk and the monitor speakers where they create the sound balance and the feel that they're after. They have all the eq and effects they could possibly need to create - CREATE - the sound they're after. What they hear is what us poor mugs at the other of the chain are trying to get close to.

Luckily we all know that we never will, unless we install the same desk, speakers and room setup and play those same master recordings back on it. Ain't gonna happen guys, but it's fun trying to get there. As hobbies go it's huge fun. Remember fun guys? Before you became angry internet keyboard warriors? 

Have a nice day y'all. I've got Radio Paradise [Canadian streamed radio  station on a FLAC feed] on the big stereo with the TdF on Eurosport on mute. Is good ya?

Ciao.

Ergates

Username03725 said:

Speaking of Er 'Never Knowingly Right' Gates, I see here...

Ergates said

I believe that the main reason there hasn't been a clamp down on these snake oil suppliers is that they're mostly targeting people wealthy enough to be able to waste £3000 on a magic power lead.

that my £30 lead has magically become a £3000 magic power lead. Nothing like a bit of exaggeration eh in a desperate attempt to make a point? But I'll concede that a stereo that'd cost over £50k if I marched into a shop today to buy it does make a £500 Powerline buttons in comparison. Maybe you should pop round and have a listen Ergates. I'll show you the Big Orange Lead too, in and out. 

First - nobody here has insulted you, kindly refrain from doing so to others as it's directly against the board rules.

Second - I hate to burst your bubble but that comment wasn't actually about your power cable.  £3000 power cables exist, and aren't even close to being the most expensive ones available.

debitcardmayhem

I will , cos I can …. Can forum posts start flames 🔥 or https://pointerclicker.com/can-hdmi-cables-catch-fire/
🙈

Bendy_House

Username03725 said:

I didn't expect to be called a liar, stupid, to have it explained to me how Google could educate me on blind tests etc,
Ciao.

Could you point out where that has happened?

And I don't consider you to be a liar either, not at all, as this would imply that you were feeding us a deliberately false line on this issue, knowing it to be untrue. I doubt very much that is the case. Almost certainly you have truly convinced yourself that there is a benefit, despite the total lack of impartial evidence, and despite the fact it is scientifically highly implausible. Ie - it's a belief system.

A liar? No.

Thin-skinned? I'll let others judge.

Bendy_House

Username03725 said:

Fill your boots Bendy; you want to put a stop to this sort of absolute filth yeah? Here's the ASA Complaints website. I look forward to seeing you nominating Ecosse Cables for their blatant lies concerning things that our chum Ergates is absolutely and utterly convinced just cannot happen.

I might just do that

I took a reading light company to task before, as they made claims about their specialised lamp that implied it was better than normal lights - when their advert also indicated that it held a standard halogen G9.

It was upheld.

debitcardmayhem

I’m thinking this thread , supposed to be about bi-wiring speakers , has gone way off topic and it’s going to get closed. I hope not it’s been such fun🧨

Sandtree

Username03725 said:

that my £30 lead has magically become a £3000 magic power lead. Nothing like a bit of exaggeration eh in a desperate attempt to make a point? But I'll concede that a stereo that'd cost over £50k if I marched into a shop today to buy it does make a £500 Powerline buttons in comparison. Maybe you should pop round and have a listen Ergates. I'll show you the Big Orange Lead too, in and out. 

And finally, in another desperate attempt to do a bit of getting onside with the cynics...

Heedtheadvice said:

For anyone who believes a mains cable (faults excepted) makes a big difference, as yourself why the professionals do not use such cables.

Why? Because the recording engineer, the artist, and the producer, all are sat in front of a mixing desk and the monitor speakers where they create the sound balance and the feel that they're after. They have all the eq and effects they could possibly need to create - CREATE - the sound they're after. What they hear is what us poor mugs at the other of the chain are trying to get close to.

Luckily we all know that we never will, unless we install the same desk, speakers and room setup and play those same master recordings back on it. Ain't gonna happen guys, but it's fun trying to get there. As hobbies go it's huge fun. Remember fun guys? Before you became angry internet keyboard warriors? 

No one said your lead became £3,000... I raised the point that there are others available for well over £3,000 per m so its the thin edge of the wedge.

Purely personally, the thing that has always made me consider it to be snake oil, in addition to my own blind tests and not being able to tell the difference plus all those showing scope traces showing no difference, is that £500, £5,000 and £50,000 amps are all supplied with the basically the identical powerlead. If the powerlead could make such a material difference as they claim why aren't any providing what would be a relatively cheap extra in the box? Sure the £50k one may have some power line conditioning built in but at some point a £30 cable that's probably well under £10 wholesale is a cheap upgrade for the manufacturer -v- building in conditioning of the power (if it worked). Few amp companies sell cables so its not like its so they can cross sell you later. 

As to recording engineers... no, they want all their equipment to be absolutely as neutral and true as possible. Lets assume your powerlead really did create a stronger bass then if they used that and mixed it to sound perfect then as soon as they listened on their portable device the bass would be lacking as it didn't benefit from the bump caused by the cable.

Knowing a couple of recording engineers... they dont even want to listen to the recording exactly how they've mixed it at work and so dont try and reproduce the neutral/clinical sound they have at work but have systems that colour the sound in the way they like it so they may have speakers known for their warm sounds etc. 

Bendy_House

Username03725 said:

Bendy_House said:

It is astonishing how this is 'allowed' to continue with so little challenge, and how what I assumed were respected and trusted HiFi reviewers are seemingly also be sucked in. (Yes, I mean the likes of you, WhatHiFi). (1)

I can understand possible reasons; not only to keep advertisers happy (the most cynical of) but also perhaps a more altruistic one - it's [sic] keeps lots of small, specialist companies going, and the whole larger aura of HiFi's Holy Grail. (2)

Like all other belief systems (that don't cause harm to others), folk can fill their boots. But they should also be prepared to either present evidence for their beliefs, or to grow a thicker skin. Or, simply keep it nice and quietly to themselves. (3)

(1) Allowed eh? Maybe the poor idiots like me who buy this stuff get it home and decide that they're quite happy with whatever they bought and it never occurs to pursue a complaint about something that gave a [perceived or otherwise] improvement. And the ones that don't, they return it and get the refund that's so normal this far into the 21st century.

(2) Is that a bad thing then? Suppliers providing stuff that people want to buy, but angry old men shouting at clouds insist No - this must not be allowed.

(3) I only got involved because I thought my experience might contribute to a humdrum internet forum. I didn't expect to be called a liar, stupid, to have it explained to me how Google could educate me on blind tests etc, or to be on the end of a dose of the ultimate in mansplaining being hurled my way by the angriest of the lot, the one who I note has already apologised for seeming to be "too keen to pick a fight with everyone" [nice one], as what I experienced is apparently a physical impossibility.

(1) Seriously, you can do what you want, buy what you want, claim what you want. But I do NOT consider it 'right' that commercial companies can make claims that scientific rationals can see are extremely implausible, almost certainly impossible. My complaint is against the likes of Ecosse, not you.

(2) No, not necessarily bad in every respect - that's why I called one aspect potentially 'altruistic' in my thread (did you miss that bit?). But, when it's done under what are almost certainly false pretences, I do think that is bad. Ecosse's claims are pushing it, especially if - were it true - they could PROVE it in an instant. But, they don't. They only claim.

(3) "I only got involved because I thought my experience might contribute to a humdrum internet forum." 100% success there - thank you.