Bi-wiring speakers. Really?!

Bendy_House

I've decided I quite like after-market speaker cables after all. My recently-purchased B&Ws came with two sets of cables, the originals and a beefy after-market set. I fitted the originals and sold the after-market jobbies for £35.

Bendy_House

Username03725 said:

Thought I'd look in to see how it's going... Oh my word - talk about angry old men shouting at clouds... Ho ho ho. Come on chaps, get a grip. It's just audio. And video.

I refer you back to my first contribution, where I said

If you need to be convinced and see it all as a con, step away - you won't be missing out and you'll be pleased you saved your cash and weren't conned by that deceptive hifi salesman.

But no; it seems that each protagonist has to keep banging on getting ever more steamed up about something that doesn't really matter. 

Bendy_House said:

It is astonishing how this is 'allowed' to continue with so little challenge, and how what I assumed were respected and trusted HiFi reviewers are seemingly also be sucked in. (Yes, I mean the likes of you, WhatHiFi). (1)

I can understand possible reasons; not only to keep advertisers happy (the most cynical of) but also perhaps a more altruistic one - it's [sic] keeps lots of small, specialist companies going, and the whole larger aura of HiFi's Holy Grail. (2)

Like all other belief systems (that don't cause harm to others), folk can fill their boots. But they should also be prepared to either present evidence for their beliefs, or to grow a thicker skin. Or, simply keep it nice and quietly to themselves. (3)

(1) Allowed eh? Maybe the poor idiots like me who buy this stuff get it home and decide that they're quite happy with whatever they bought and it never occurs to pursue a complaint about something that gave a [perceived or otherwise] improvement. And the ones that don't, they return it and get the refund that's so normal this far into the 21st century.

(2) Is that a bad thing then? Suppliers providing stuff that people want to buy, but angry old men shouting at clouds insist No - this must not be allowed.

(3) I only got involved because I thought my experience might contribute to a humdrum internet forum. I didn't expect to be called a liar, stupid, to have it explained to me how Google could educate me on blind tests etc, or to be on the end of a dose of the ultimate in mansplaining being hurled my way by the angriest of the lot, the one who I note has already apologised for seeming to be "too keen to pick a fight with everyone" [nice one], as what I experienced is apparently a physical impossibility.

I'm out; you chaps carry on shouting into the wilderness.

But before I go, here's the actual text from the Big Orange Lead website:

Here are the facts
Visual; Deeper blacks; finer detail, more vivid colours and clarity; greater contrast; more depth, creating almost 3D picture; better able to follow the action; more engrossing; more light.
Audio: clearer centre channel/speech detail; deeper and stronger bass; greater separation; more expansive surround sound; more involving soundtrack; better able to follow the dialogue; greater dynamics; wider more holographic 360 soundstage; bigger/bolder drama
Why is this possible? The use of better more highly screened conductor material ensures faster processing and less 'noise' interference;

The absolute nerve of them, putting it in black & white on their website, in contradiction of all advertising rules (probably). 

Fill your boots Bendy; you want to put a stop to this sort of absolute filth yeah? Here's the ASA Complaints website. I look forward to seeing you nominating Ecosse Cables for their blatant lies concerning things that our chum Ergates is absolutely and utterly convinced just cannot happen. I mean, he told me; my eyes are no more - unreliable, unseeing, just wrong. That's a shame, I was about to watch the TdF in HD on this lovey vibrant OLED tv fed by a Sky box with a special mains lead. And now I realise that what I was seeing just cannot exist. Oh no.

Speaking of Er 'Never Knowingly Right' Gates, I see here...

Ergates said

I believe that the main reason there hasn't been a clamp down on these snake oil suppliers is that they're mostly targeting people wealthy enough to be able to waste £3000 on a magic power lead.

that my £30 lead has magically become a £3000 magic power lead. Nothing like a bit of exaggeration eh in a desperate attempt to make a point? But I'll concede that a stereo that'd cost over £50k if I marched into a shop today to buy it does make a £500 Powerline buttons in comparison. Maybe you should pop round and have a listen Ergates. I'll show you the Big Orange Lead too, in and out. 

And finally, in another desperate attempt to do a bit of getting onside with the cynics...

Heedtheadvice said:

For anyone who believes a mains cable (faults excepted) makes a big difference, as yourself why the professionals do not use such cables.

Why? Because the recording engineer, the artist, and the producer, all are sat in front of a mixing desk and the monitor speakers where they create the sound balance and the feel that they're after. They have all the eq and effects they could possibly need to create - CREATE - the sound they're after. What they hear is what us poor mugs at the other of the chain are trying to get close to.

Luckily we all know that we never will, unless we install the same desk, speakers and room setup and play those same master recordings back on it. Ain't gonna happen guys, but it's fun trying to get there. As hobbies go it's huge fun. Remember fun guys? Before you became angry internet keyboard warriors? 

Have a nice day y'all. I've got Radio Paradise [Canadian streamed radio  station on a FLAC feed] on the big stereo with the TdF on Eurosport on mute. Is good ya?

Ciao.

Have you looked in since, Username03725?

You said: "The absolute nerve of them, putting it in black & white on their website, in contradiction of all advertising rules (probably)."

"Fill your boots Bendy; you want to put a stop to this sort of absolute filth yeah? Here's the ASA Complaints website. I look forward to seeing you nominating Ecosse Cables for their blatant lies concerning things that our chum Ergates is absolutely and utterly convinced just cannot happen."

Well, I did indeed 'fill my boots' and submitted a complaint to ASA. This is the main content of my submission (to which I added a screenshot of their website advert). They asked for three specific examples:

"Three specific claims that I believe to be technically impossible, and for which no evidence has been provided are:

1) "Bass is more extended, leading edges more sharply defined and pitch easier to determine."

2) "Visual; Deeper blacks; finer detail, more vivid colours and clarity; greater contrast; more depth, creating almost 3D picture; better able to follow the action; more engrossing; more light" (there's 10 claims on its own!)

3) "Audio: clearer centre channel/speech detail; deeper and stronger bass; greater separation; more expansive surround sound; more involving soundtrack; better able to follow the dialogue; greater dynamics; wider more holographic 360 soundstage; bigger/bolder drama." (There's nine more...)

If you want only three, then I guess the most implausible of these claims would be: "Deeper blacks", "more vivid colours and clarity", and "deeper and stronger bass".

Many of their claims are emotive hyperbole - eg 'almost 3D picture', and - earlier in their advert - "...we can guarantee that it will improve the component's performance raised by an order of magnitude." But, what is particularly concerning, is that their claims are prefaced by "Here are the facts""

And, this is their reply, received today:

Dear Mr M...

Your complaint – Ecosse Cables

 Thank you for contacting the ASA.

 Having now reviewed the ad in light of your concerns, we have come to the conclusion that it was likely to have breached the Advertising Codes (“the Codes”) that we administer.  I am writing to let you know that we have taken steps to address this. 

 We have explained your concerns to the advertiser and provided guidance to them on the areas that require attention, together with advice on how to ensure that their advertising complies with the Codes.

 Thank you once again for taking the time to raise your concerns with us.  Comments such as yours help us to understand the issues that matter to consumers and we will keep a record of your complaint on file for use in future monitoring.  If you would like more information about our complaint handling principles, please visit our website here.

 Kind regards

 Jenny

 Jenny Graves

Investigations Executive

Direct line 020 7492 2263

 Advertising Standards Authority

Castle House, 37-45 Paul Street

London EC2A 4LS

Telephone 020 7492 2222

www.asa.org.uk

Thank you, Username03725 - it was genuinely interesting. Sadly, I am as certain in my belief that Ecosse's claims are utter nonsense, as I am that it won't make any difference to you whatsoever. Am I right?

Heedtheadvice

Well done Bendy!

Perhaps more of us should take the trouble to raise complaints!

Ergates

Bendy_House said:

 Having now reviewed the ad in light of your concerns, we have come to the conclusion that it was likely to have breached the Advertising Codes (“the Codes”) that we administer.  I am writing to let you know that we have taken steps to address this. 

 

Epic win!

Username03725

Bendy_House said:

Have you looked in since, Username03725?

...

And, this is their reply, received today:

Dear Mr M...

Your complaint – Ecosse Cables

 Thank you for contacting the ASA.

 Having now reviewed the ad in light of your concerns, we have come to the conclusion that it was likely to have breached the Advertising Codes (“the Codes”) that we administer.  I am writing to let you know that we have taken steps to address this. 

 We have explained your concerns to the advertiser and provided guidance to them on the areas that require attention, together with advice on how to ensure that their advertising complies with the Codes.

 Thank you once again for taking the time to raise your concerns with us.  Comments such as yours help us to understand the issues that matter to consumers and we will keep a record of your complaint on file for use in future monitoring.  If you would like more information about our complaint handling principles, please visit our website here.

 Kind regards

 Jenny

 Jenny Graves

Investigations Executive

Direct line 020 7492 2263

 Advertising Standards Authority

Castle House, 37-45 Paul Street

London EC2A 4LS

Telephone 020 7492 2222

www.asa.org.uk

Thank you, Username03725 - it was genuinely interesting. Sadly, I am as certain in my belief that Ecosse's claims are utter nonsense, as I am that it won't make any difference to you whatsoever. Am I right?

Have I looked in? No. Hols, busy, better things to do than argue about this sort of thing forever etc; but I just looked in and was surprised to see this thread still on the first page of Techie so had a peek.

Well done Bendy - someone who puts his money where his mouth is and follows through. That's unusual these days.

Despite this being seen as 'an epic win' etc, I'm not so sure. All I see is the ASA saying that it was likely to have broken the rules. No evidence of them doing any tests themselves, or even asking the offending company to justify their claims. Maybe they did, but there's nothing to say that, so it appears to me that all that's happened is that someone at the ASA has taken the same view as people on here and decided it cannot be possible, therefore it's an infringement. I'd like to see more detail tbh of how they reached their decision, and what evidence the Big Orange Lead manufacturers had to offer in their defence. But I won't hold my breath.

Anyway. I was reading that Naim forum again and found a discussion about linking bars, and thought you good people might be interested. An interesting point that came up is that on a speaker with multiple terminal posts for LF & HF, or L/M/H frequencies, connecting a single speaker lead diagonally with the -ve to the bass post (bottom left usually) and +ve to the treble (top right), makes a difference. I've just tried it, but won't be reporting my findings for obvious reasons. 

https://community.naimaudio.com/t/speaker-jumpers/24704/99

Enjoy..

prowla

Bendy_House said:

prowla said:

A decent Hi-Fi shop would be happy to demonstrate the setup to you.

As for spectrum analysis, it will tell you absolutely nothing as to whether a system sounds good to you.

The assertion of bi-wiring is that the cables will affect the sound, so splitting the signal paths at the amp end will give a different sound to it all running down the same one.

The downside of bi-wiring is that you need double the cables, so that could cost (significant) money.

There's a lot of snake-oil in Hi-Fi, but there are also some things which are true.

(There are also some things which seem true but are only in your head.)

Yes, a decent HiFi shop would demonstrate the two setups. And I'm still happy to bet that £enner that there would be no audible difference - only in one's head (meta, not lit).

Of course, a spectrum analysis won't tell you if a system sounds good to you, but I meant that it would/should sort out whether there is a difference in actual sound produced by the speakers with an identical source, but only wired differently. For the guy on YouTube to proclaim as seeming fact that two flat solid metal bridges were the 'weakest point' as they would "deteriorate the sound quality sooo much..." is, I believe, utter bunkum. It's quite a claim by him, and with all such strong claims should come strong evidence. Even weak will do; a spectrum analysis would indicate if there was any actual difference in the outputted signals from the speakers. And I'm pretty confident it wouldn't show any. If it cannot, then your ears ditto.

Absolutely, there is a shed-load of snake oil in HiFi circles, and I'm also pretty sure that the thickness and 'purity' of cables is one that's overdone by a large margin. I do get that, at atomic level, electrons flowing through cables can behave in unexpected ways, such as concentrating around the wire strand outers at higher frequencies (it was something like that - it was a looong time ago that I read it), but to suggest that at the voltage and current levels that drive a 100W domestic speaker system any of this would be audible, is again - I believe, until evidence provided to the contrary - also complete and utter bunkum. Obviously, a cable would need to be sized to carry the load, or else resistance could become an problem. On the 'purity' issue, tho', what metal is used extensively throughout the circuits to pass these HiFi signals? Yup, lead solder, or its modern equivalent. And solder DOES make the actual electrical connections, right up to power-amp and output stages; remove the solder, and you won't get sound. Oxygen-free ma botty.

Again, remove the subjective, and provide the evidence. (That's aimed at these claims, Prowla, not at you. Thank you for your comments.)

I'm sure HiFi shops get largely positive responses from customers when comparing bi-wiring or super-sized-oxy-free-cables, but I also suspect it would be a 50:50 result if they didn't actually tell the customer in advance which was being trialled.

Cynical? Not really. Just an evidence-based, ex-science & tech teacher.

It's a fascinating subject, but as much to do with psychology as physics. Imo.

Username03725 said:

Ah, this old conundrum. Welcome Bendy_House to the world of smoke, mirrors and snake oil. Or for some of us, hifi. You join a queue of cynical punters questioning how a wire can make a difference that goes back 50 or 60 years, maybe more.

I use Naim gear, and Naim specifically advise against bi-wiring mainly because the speaker cable contributes to the impedance and inductance of the amp's output stage. They recommend a min length of about 4m, and for most of their amps to use NACA5 cable.

Here you go, I found a quote 

...require[s] a cable that provides a nominal inductance along with a low capacitance, something that NACA5 ideally provides, subject to a minimum 3.5m length per channel

Other manufacturers will have a different approach and I presume other manufacturers will have their own opinion on bi-wiring.

Despite Naim not recommending bi-wiring there is a lot of on-going discussion on their forum on the merits or otherwise of using the same speaker cable for the speaker jumpers. The consensus seems to be that it's a good idea, and it does make sense. Different cables do give a different sound - I swapped my NACA5s for Chord cables a few years ago and didn't like them; a subsequent change to Witch Hat Phantoms after going back to the original A5s were a nice boost, in bass and clarity. And as my speakers (ATC SCM40) each have 3 pairs of speaker posts it would make sense to continue the whole electrical chain with the same cable. I haven't yet, but might. I doubt if it'd make a big difference, but it would be one more little thing that completes it.

Here's the thing... By the time you've spent what you spent on a Naim amp, Naim streamer, Naim pre-amp and Naim rack plus speaker cables, Powerlines and room dressing, any change of this nature is always going to be small. Diminishing returns & all that. Equally, if there's a thought in your head that it could be improved however slightly for v little additional outlay - and speaker jumpers are miniscule in the whole total - it'd be odd not to do that, if nothing else for peace of mind. The usual test is to implement a change or an upgrade, live with it for a few weeks and then take it out and see if you're missing anything.

In the end though, it's down to a personal choice and down to your own personality. If you need to be convinced and see it all as a con, step away - you won't be missing out and you'll be pleased you saved your cash and weren't conned by that deceptive hifi salesman. Equally if your system is tremendous but in your head you know there's a possible weak link that can easily be fixed, go for it. Most dealers do a 30-day money back thing for this sort of thing, so what have you got to lose?

You can argue electrical properties and demand evidence till the cows come home; in the end it's what your ears hear and what your own brain thinks in terms of being satisfied with it all or wondering if despite the outlay there's still a step further to be exploited. There's no right or wrong answer, just your own attitude and opinion.

Funnily enough, my system is Naim too and I use NACA5 cable.

Way back I compared it to Linn cable and found the Naim was more dynamic, so that's what I've got.

I've never had my system bi-wired.

You missed out the Hi-Line interconnect there! (Actually, I found that made a significant difference over the stock interconnect between my CD and pre-amp.)

Username03725

Thanks Prowla. Noted, but the streamer comes with a Hi-Line. I might give a Super Lumina a go one day, probably after the dedicated mains goes in.

hareng

Username03725 said:

dedicated mains goes in.

One of the cheapest and best upgrades you will ever do putting a separate spur in and doing away with mains earth to a copper pipe outside. Can almost tell time of the day, tell if its rained, even better if its snowed although thats a rarity nowadays.

hareng

Bendy_House said:

"Three specific claims that I believe to be technically impossible, and for which no evidence has been provided are:

1) "Bass is more extended, leading edges more sharply defined and pitch easier to determine."

2) "Visual; Deeper blacks; finer detail, more vivid colours and clarity; greater contrast; more depth, creating almost 3D picture; better able to follow the action; more engrossing; more light" (there's 10 claims on its own!)

3) "Audio: clearer centre channel/speech detail; deeper and stronger bass; greater separation; more expansive surround sound; more involving soundtrack; better able to follow the dialogue; greater dynamics; wider more holographic 360 soundstage; bigger/bolder drama." (There's nine more...)

Sadly, I am as certain in my belief that Ecosse's claims are utter nonsense, as I am that it won't make any difference to you whatsoever. Am I right?

Unfortunately its quite possible it will do all or part of the 3 things.

Never heard of solid core giving stereo imagery, sound staging, timing and depth?

Differing cables affect what you hear and dont need to be exorbitant cost, tried aerial coax 75 ohm on a load tolerant amp, you will be shocked at the bass and definition.

Back in the day i tried every cable i could get my hands on but you will need a decent setup and speakers to match the sound you like. Its also dependant upon the recordings, the only cd i could listen to was a 30 yr old £10k Meridian active setup comparable to my £2300 Roksan, modded Ion 3X and SD Acoustics setup.

Ended up Tri wiring and reversing polarity of base.

Bendy_House

hareng said:

Bendy_House said:

"Three specific claims that I believe to be technically impossible, and for which no evidence has been provided are:

1) "Bass is more extended, leading edges more sharply defined and pitch easier to determine."

2) "Visual; Deeper blacks; finer detail, more vivid colours and clarity; greater contrast; more depth, creating almost 3D picture; better able to follow the action; more engrossing; more light" (there's 10 claims on its own!)

3) "Audio: clearer centre channel/speech detail; deeper and stronger bass; greater separation; more expansive surround sound; more involving soundtrack; better able to follow the dialogue; greater dynamics; wider more holographic 360 soundstage; bigger/bolder drama." (There's nine more...)

Sadly, I am as certain in my belief that Ecosse's claims are utter nonsense, as I am that it won't make any difference to you whatsoever. Am I right?

Unfortunately its quite possible it will do all or part of the 3 things.

Never heard of solid core giving stereo imagery, sound staging, timing and depth?

Differing cables affect what you hear and dont need to be exorbitant cost, tried aerial coax 75 ohm on a load tolerant amp, you will be shocked at the bass and definition.

Back in the day i tried every cable i could get my hands on but you will need a decent setup and speakers to match the sound you like. Its also dependant upon the recordings, the only cd i could listen to was a 30 yr old £10k Meridian active setup comparable to my £2300 Roksan, modded Ion 3X and SD Acoustics setup.

Ended up Tri wiring and reversing polarity of base.

Never heard of solid core giving stereo imagery, sound staging, timing and depth? No, I haven't.

What are you actually saying? That solid-core wires give an audible increase in 'stereo imagery' or 'sound staging' (surely the same thing?) Or 'timing' (what the hell is that?!) Depth? Depth of what?

All these terms seem to refer to how you and your ears perceive the actual sound that comes out of the two speakers? Yes? Cool. So to compare the sounds between different setups which use different cables as 'imaged/staged/timed' and 'deep' as each will be, your two ears will have to be in the exact same place each time? Your head locked in a cradle so it cannot move. A half-inch physical shift of your head to one side, or a minute horizontal turn of your ears away from the perfect 90o to the source, will alter these factors far more than almost any change of cable might do. Yes? Surely yes, yes?

And that doesn't even begin to cover the delusional aspect of the user. What they anticipate. What they desire to find. Because - and here's the thing - they all know which one has the Big Orange cable fitted when they 'test' it. Ditto the connecting cables. Ditto everything else.

And yet, whilst knowing all this to be true, to 'demonstrate' the supposed difference, we are just expected to accept emotive descriptions like 'shocked at the bass and definition...'?

Hareng, if there is a perceptible audio difference in your use of wires, or Ecosse's use of their Big Orange power cables, then it will be detectable and measurable using audio analysing equipment. This will pick up MORE than human ears will EVER hear. And it would be evidence - the one factor that is completely lacking in all of these claims. If Ecosse could prove the improvements they merely claim, then they'd sell more cables - they would, they would, little question. Heck, if it really made an audible difference, I might buy one myself.

But they don't provide any evidence, and we all know why. They, instead, rely on advertising hyperbole. And 'impartial' reviews, which we know are not, for the reasons stated above.

It would appear that 'evidence' is anathema to many audiophiles. Why is that?

No, I do not believe for a second that a Big Orange cable will give you 'deeper blacks' with video equipment. I guffaw at the claim that it provides 'more expansive surround sound; more involving soundtrack; better able to follow the dialogue, wider more holographic 360 soundstage, bigger/bolder drama...'

I believe that to be complete and utter horse-poo.

BUT, I am absolutely ready to be proved wrong. ALL it would require is a microdot of impartial evidence, which would be dead easy to provide should the manufacturer wish to. Or should I say, be able to.

I'd accept two forms of evidence. One would be a spectrum analysis of the sound or video image produced, or some equivalent form of electronic detection and analysis. This would prove a difference, even if it wasn't audible or visible to the human senses. At least the claim could be made that there is a difference - which I'd presume would be an 'improvement'. Don't tell me for a second that there isn't a device that measures 'deeper blacks'! I know there is, because every new tele and even laptop comes with its measured contrast ratio and nits and all that malarkey!

Come on, Ecosse - give us a measured improvement in this added depth! Of course, they won't. Because there isn't any.

And the other form of evidence I'd accept is 'user' - provided it was a true blind test. Two screens - which one is blacker! Two audio performances through identical equipment, one with a £2.50 power cable, and one with a Big Orange, but both hidden. Which one provides the 'deeper and stronger bass'?! Keep switching between them until the cows come home, and then choose.

Hareng, what do you think of the £4k fuse mentioned earlier?