Bi-wiring speakers. Really?!

Username03725

it'll be the listener's ears/expectations that'll likely change, and not the actual speakers. 

And that's what happens. Overtime your eyes & ears become very accustomed to the norm, be that picture or sound. When something changes and it no longer looks or sounds like it did, that's the evidence. 

As before, leave whatever you changed in place for a few weeks then take it out again, and see what's changed. That's the reliable test, not just simple A/B switching or blind / double blind testing.

Ergates

Username03725 said:

Ergates said:

No, they implicitly called you wrong.   To be a liar would imply you knew what you were saying was wrong but said it anyway.   Nobody is saying that - we're just saying that what you believe has happened can't possibly have happened ergo you are mistaken.

The people who are liars are the people who sold you that cable.

Oh man this gets better and better. 


So now I'm not a liar, just too stupid to believe that when I swapped the lead on the Sky box, and suddenly the lovely picture that I'd achieved by carefully tweaking all the TV settings had now gone, that didn't happen? That I then had to go back and adjust the brightness, gamma, colour, blah blah because although it looked so different now it, that just couldn't have happened, because errmm... Ergates says so?  Right. And my wife noticing that it was 'nicer' - that just didn't happen? I swap the mains lead; it now looks wrong because everything is just a bit more so, but that really didn't happen, it's just me so desperate to believe that some guy on eBay hasn't ripped me off for £30 that I've decided to fiddle with everything on the Picture menu just to convince myself? Really? Seriously?

I then see that What HiFi reported it (I saw that same ad after I bought the lead), and despite what you all claim they don't do glowing reviews based on ad spend, and I've never seen The Big Orange Lead advertised in there anyway. The guy who sold it on eBay just listed it for what was - an upgraded mains lead that was suitable for a Sky box. And the guy on the Naim forum who first raised it - with the same incredulity that you're showing - he lied too did he, or is also a bit too thick to realise that what his eyes also perceive as a better picture was just his wallet playing tricks and he should know better?

Honestly. It worked. Just like replacing the std mains lead with a Naim Powerline on my 300DR amp's power supply gave a noticeable improvement. Just like using the Powerline that came with the PS555 to power the 272 (since sold) provided a noticeable lift over the std one that I'd been using as I too didn't think it would make a difference.

Sneer all you like. But trying to claim to someone who is quite picky about picture and sound quality, that improvements that were clearly present just couldn't have happened because you don't think it's possible, is a little bit silly.

You're not a liar, you're probably not stupid, you're just mistaken.

Human perception is not a reliable instrument, it is *incredibly* susceptible to bias caused by an immeasurably wide pool of possible factors.  The second cup of tea in the morning never tastes as good as the first, except... it probably tastes almost the same, it's me that's different.  This is why we use machines to measure things that are important.

Just to reiterate - what you, and What HiFi are claiming this cable does, *isn't possible* due to the way Sky boxes and modern TVs work.  The End.  If what you perceive is at odds with reality, then it *must* be your perception that is wrong, and given what we know about human perception this isn't even that unlikely.

Ergates

debitcardmayhem said:

My word, words like snake oil, 1s and 0s , cable attenuation etc !!!!!! .

Are your ears perfectly able to determine such nuances in EACH ear equally ? OK I'll leave my coat it's too hot to get it and my hat 

Oh as if your opinions are going to make everyone else bow down to your knowledge. It is all about the perception of each of your lug holes, being able to convert analogue sound waves to 1's and 0's to transfer that to the the CPU (your brain) and then the brain may be a celeron or an i9 24 core beast and it spits out the answer you expect. All other points are moot

I'm not exactly clear on what point you're trying to make....?

Username03725

Ergates said:

Just to reiterate - what you, and What HiFi are claiming this cable does, *isn't possible* due to the way Sky boxes and modern TVs work.  The End.  If what you perceive is at odds with reality, then it *must* be your perception that is wrong, and given what we know about human perception this isn't even that unlikely.

Give it up mate. If I swap a component in the chain from wall socket to TV and that results in me having to reset it, something has changed. Not just 'ooooh I think the hue of the green on the snooker is now half a notch higher' or some other hard to detect change; it was sufficiently different to require me to go through it all again. And when I had, the picture that I was very used to seeing was now sharper, brighter, better than I'd ever been able to get it to before. And if I swap it out and go back, I can't get that same brighter more lifelike picture. And really, if I see it and The Big Orange Lead people guarantee an improvement in their ads and What HiFi report the same and a couple of cynics on a forum also flag it up as a worthwhile investment, I think I'll go with that rather than your blanket refusal. Besides which, I'm the one who may be down by a couple of bottles of wine but have had 6 months and counting of a brilliant picture on my TV. Golf, F1, Outlaws, Anglia News [HD] etc... it all looks brilliant, and better than I'd ever previously been able to get it.

Your naysaying is a bit wide of the mark. Just because mains variations and the effects thereof are outside of your comprehension, that doesn't make it 'impossible'.

Ergates

Username03725 said:

Ergates said:

Just to reiterate - what you, and What HiFi are claiming this cable does, *isn't possible* due to the way Sky boxes and modern TVs work.  The End.  If what you perceive is at odds with reality, then it *must* be your perception that is wrong, and given what we know about human perception this isn't even that unlikely.

Give it up mate. If I swap a component in the chain from wall socket to TV and that results in me having to reset it, something has changed. Not just 'ooooh I think the hue of the green on the snooker is now half a notch higher' or some other hard to detect change; it was sufficiently different to require me to go through it all again. And when I had, the picture that I was very used to seeing was now sharper, brighter, better than I'd ever been able to get it to before. And if I swap it out and go back, I can't get that same brighter more lifelike picture. And really, if I see it and The Big Orange Lead people guarantee an improvement in their ads and What HiFi report the same and a couple of cynics on a forum also flag it up as a worthwhile investment, I think I'll go with that rather than your blanket refusal. Besides which, I'm the one who may be down by a couple of bottles of wine but have had 6 months and counting of a brilliant picture on my TV. Golf, F1, Outlaws, Anglia News [HD] etc... it all looks brilliant, and better than I'd ever previously been able to get it.

Your naysaying is a bit wide of the mark. Just because mains variations and the effects thereof are outside of your comprehension, that doesn't make it 'impossible'.

No, it's literally impossible.

Changing the power cable to your sky box *cannot* change the colour values coming out of it.  Ever.

That you don't understand how modern technology works doesn't change this.  No amount of "I had to fiddle with the settings" will change this.  No amount of proven liars (What HiFi) agreeing with you will change this.  It cannot happen.  It did not happen.  Your claims are provably false and they always will be.

Bendy_House

Username03725 said:

it'll be the listener's ears/expectations that'll likely change, and not the actual speakers. 

And that's what happens. Overtime your eyes & ears become very accustomed to the norm, be that picture or sound. When something changes and it no longer looks or sounds like it did, that's the evidence. 

As before, leave whatever you changed in place for a few weeks then take it out again, and see what's changed. That's the reliable test, not just simple A/B switching or blind / double blind testing.

Depends what it is you are actually testing for. An ACTUAL change, or an EXPECTATION of one.

If someone claims an orange cable gives immediately perceptible gains in sound or vision, then the evidence can be presented in an indesputable manner. It isn't a question of taste or perception. It's real. And 'real' can be measured.  

And if you don't have the equipment to measure it, then double-blind testing and statistics will arrive at the same conclusion.

Ergates

Bendy_House said:

Username03725 said:

it'll be the listener's ears/expectations that'll likely change, and not the actual speakers. 

And that's what happens. Overtime your eyes & ears become very accustomed to the norm, be that picture or sound. When something changes and it no longer looks or sounds like it did, that's the evidence. 

As before, leave whatever you changed in place for a few weeks then take it out again, and see what's changed. That's the reliable test, not just simple A/B switching or blind / double blind testing.

Depends what it is you are actually testing for. An ACTUAL change, or an EXPECTATION of one.

If someone claims an orange cable gives immediately perceptible gains in sound or vision, then the evidence can be presented in an indesputable manner. It isn't a question of taste or perception. It's real. And 'real' can be measured.  

And if you don't have the equipment to measure it, then double-blind testing and statistics will arrive at the same conclusion.

It would be trivially easy for one of these companies to prove that their magical device actually improved some aspect of the signal that is being sent down an HDMI cable because, being digital, we can record and compare every part of it.

There is no need to either speculate or use a human to perceive what colour the pixel at 1124x288 on the screen is because we know *exactly* what colour and *exactly* what brightness it is because this information is what is coming down the cable.

Of course they don't do this because it would immediately disprove their claims.

debitcardmayhem

Ergates said:

debitcardmayhem said:

My word, words like snake oil, 1s and 0s , cable attenuation etc !!!!!! .

Are your ears perfectly able to determine such nuances in EACH ear equally ? OK I'll leave my coat it's too hot to get it and my hat 

Oh as if your opinions are going to make everyone else bow down to your knowledge. It is all about the perception of each of your lug holes, being able to convert analogue sound waves to 1's and 0's to transfer that to the the CPU (your brain) and then the brain may be a celeron or an i9 24 core beast and it spits out the answer you expect. All other points are moot

I'm not exactly clear on what point you're trying to make....?

The point was addressed to the OP , but you just seem to want to pick a fight with anyone , now I have made a point rather than a rather light hearted response. I have finished

Bendy_House

Ergates said:

Bendy_House said:

Username03725 said:

it'll be the listener's ears/expectations that'll likely change, and not the actual speakers. 

And that's what happens. Overtime your eyes & ears become very accustomed to the norm, be that picture or sound. When something changes and it no longer looks or sounds like it did, that's the evidence. 

As before, leave whatever you changed in place for a few weeks then take it out again, and see what's changed. That's the reliable test, not just simple A/B switching or blind / double blind testing.

Depends what it is you are actually testing for. An ACTUAL change, or an EXPECTATION of one.

If someone claims an orange cable gives immediately perceptible gains in sound or vision, then the evidence can be presented in an indesputable manner. It isn't a question of taste or perception. It's real. And 'real' can be measured.  

And if you don't have the equipment to measure it, then double-blind testing and statistics will arrive at the same conclusion.

It would be trivially easy for one of these companies to prove that their magical device actually improved some aspect of the signal that is being sent down an HDMI cable because, being digital, we can record and compare every part of it.

There is no need to either speculate or use a human to perceive what colour the pixel at 1124x288 on the screen is because we know *exactly* what colour and *exactly* what brightness it is because this information is what is coming down the cable.

Of course they don't do this because it would immediately disprove their claims.

Good point. I'm still waiting for their 'before and after' pics :-)

Ergates

debitcardmayhem said:

Ergates said:

debitcardmayhem said:

My word, words like snake oil, 1s and 0s , cable attenuation etc !!!!!! .

Are your ears perfectly able to determine such nuances in EACH ear equally ? OK I'll leave my coat it's too hot to get it and my hat 

Oh as if your opinions are going to make everyone else bow down to your knowledge. It is all about the perception of each of your lug holes, being able to convert analogue sound waves to 1's and 0's to transfer that to the the CPU (your brain) and then the brain may be a celeron or an i9 24 core beast and it spits out the answer you expect. All other points are moot

I'm not exactly clear on what point you're trying to make....?

The point was addressed to the OP , but you just seem to want to pick a fight with anyone , now I have made a point rather than a rather light hearted response. I have finished

Fair enough - I apologise if I came across as wanting to pick a fight, I just didn't know what you meant.