Bi-wiring speakers. Really?!

Bendy_House

Well, I've just cut my first slice of humble pie... :-(

https://www.whathifi.com/ecosse/big-orange-mk2/review

Jenni_D

Remember that this is a MAINS cable and not an HDMI cable. If there are issues with the domestic supply (electrical noise, e.g. from other devices) then something which helps to clean that up can help (where the onboard electronics are not optimal at doing so). That can mean less interference making its way through to the video output.

But very expensive HDMI cables are largely snake oil - as mentioned before an HDMI cable is only carrying 1s and 0s.

PS - that linked review is very sparse on detail; it's just a brief description and a subjective opinion - no comparative tests or justifying data at all (that I can see). So I wouldn't take too big a slice of pie on the basis of that alone.  

Sandtree

Bendy_House said:

Well, I've just cut my first slice of humble pie... :-(

https://www.whathifi.com/ecosse/big-orange-mk2/review

Or just come to realise the quality of the review in WhatHiFi? is directly proportional to the advertising spend commitment.

Jenni_D said:

Remember that this is a MAINS cable and not an HDMI cable. If there are issues with the domestic supply (electrical noise, e.g. from other devices) then something which helps to clean that up can help (where the onboard electronics are not optimal at doing so). That can mean less interference making its way through to the video output.

But very expensive HDMI cables are largely snake oil - as mentioned before an HDMI cable is only carrying 1s and 0s.

There are no onboard electronics in the cable, how do you think a run of copper wire is going to remove electrical noise created by items elsewhere on the ring?

Fine, if you have some electrical conditioning device first and then use this cable to connect it to the devices after then yes the improved insulation could in theory make a tiny difference but anyone willing to spend £60 or more on a mains cable should already be knowing to keep their speaker wire away from it to avoid the most likely issues.

What is worrying is that £60 is a fairly cheap one... there are people out there paying $6,000/m for cords and reviewers talk about how the power cord (even though just a cord with no electronics) have been "tuned" but none go to the extremes (such as anyone would hear the difference in a blind test - my theory)

wongataa

Bendy_House said:

Well, I've just cut my first slice of humble pie... :-(

https://www.whathifi.com/ecosse/big-orange-mk2/review

You can't trust anything What HiFi publishes.  They have claimed things that are impossible (HDMI cables affecting picture quality for example).

In that linked review it is stated:

Used in a video discipline, the Ecosse offers greater certainty where movement and edges are concerned, deepens black shades and offers great punch to high-contrast scenes. Colours are bolder, details more numerous.

This is impossible with digital video sources and interconnects.  They just publish the product makers wild made up claims.

Jenni_D

Sandtree said:

Jenni_D said:

Remember that this is a MAINS cable and not an HDMI cable. If there are issues with the domestic supply (electrical noise, e.g. from other devices) then something which helps to clean that up can help (where the onboard electronics are not optimal at doing so). That can mean less interference making its way through to the video output.

But very expensive HDMI cables are largely snake oil - as mentioned before an HDMI cable is only carrying 1s and 0s.

There are no onboard electronics in the cable, how do you think a run of copper wire is going to remove electrical noise created by items elsewhere on the ring?

Fine, if you have some electrical conditioning device first and then use this cable to connect it to the devices after then yes the improved insulation could in theory make a tiny difference but anyone willing to spend £60 or more on a mains cable should already be knowing to keep their speaker wire away from it to avoid the most likely issues.

What is worrying is that £60 is a fairly cheap one... there are people out there paying $6,000/m for cords and reviewers talk about how the power cord (even though just a cord with no electronics) have been "tuned" but none go to the extremes (such as anyone would hear the difference in a blind test - my theory)

Oh please! 🙄

Onboard electronics in the device being powered!

And the cable may have noise attenuation/filtering components (passive) that can help remove such noise at source ... but I'm sure you already knew that and just wanted an argument. Go find someone else to argue with - whilst you may have experience with the Insurance industry, I actually know what I'm talking about on this subject.

Username03725

Well, here we are... 

Ergates said:

The output from a skybox is via HDMI.  This is a digital signal, streams of 1s and 0s, that your TV interprets into a picture.  It doesn't have separate streams for colour or brightness.  The result you're observing is *literally* impossible - no amount of footling about with a sky box can change the properties of the picture output.  Only software updates, satelite broadcast changes and movement/damage to the dish can do that.

Ergates at a stroke has instantly dismissed years of R&D in the industry by proving that there's no need to buy anything other than the cheapest CD or DVD player, as all they do is spin the disc, extract the bits and fire them down the interconnect. Blow me, I wish I'd known.

Fair enough, live with that view - you're not missing out as you know you're right. Meanwhile the rest of us can appreciate better error correction, the improved quality that comes from a clean (or cleaner) power supply into the electronics that converts digital audio to an analogue output to the amp, or the higher quality components anywhere else in the chain that gives a nicer sound. Naim's CD555 is a complete waste and everyone who bought one in place of a AkachakaWahey CD101 for £30 is a mug, and so are Naim or any other manufacturer who invested in extracting the best from the source disc. 

Bendy_House said:

However, if Username's Skybox reception was absolutely borderline, then I can accept - just - that a better-shielded mains cable might work to not introduce troublesome interference to such an on-the-edge signal.

But I still find it highly implausible.

Our Sky reception is good, the picture was already good - a lot of tweaking the settings to get a lifelike colour balance had seen to that. The orange lead did just what that review claims. I saw it, wife noticed it, the improvement was literally in front of my eyes. If you want to dismiss all this and settle for just ok, getting a picture that's not quite as good as the Sky box can deliver, that's fine. Some people never touch the tv settings and are happy to live with awful colour balance and overbright pictures. I don't lose any sleep over it, it's their choice but if I stumble across a cheap upgrade that works literally straight out of the box, I'm happy with that. Sky Sports F1 in UHD, a lot of BBC HD drama and most sport if the light is good is a sight to behold.

Feel free to miss out on that, in your eagerness to prove to yourself that you're no mug and won't be caught out by these dodgy misleading snake oil smoke & mirrors salesmen. Well played. Meanwhile, perhaps you'd like to convince all the speaker cable manufacturers, the audio & video makers, and the end-users who are gullible enough to believe what they see & hear even though our friends here have shown it to be palpably false, that they've all been wasting their time. 

Sandtree

Jenni_D said:

Sandtree said:

Jenni_D said:

Remember that this is a MAINS cable and not an HDMI cable. If there are issues with the domestic supply (electrical noise, e.g. from other devices) then something which helps to clean that up can help (where the onboard electronics are not optimal at doing so). That can mean less interference making its way through to the video output.

But very expensive HDMI cables are largely snake oil - as mentioned before an HDMI cable is only carrying 1s and 0s.

There are no onboard electronics in the cable, how do you think a run of copper wire is going to remove electrical noise created by items elsewhere on the ring?

Fine, if you have some electrical conditioning device first and then use this cable to connect it to the devices after then yes the improved insulation could in theory make a tiny difference but anyone willing to spend £60 or more on a mains cable should already be knowing to keep their speaker wire away from it to avoid the most likely issues.

What is worrying is that £60 is a fairly cheap one... there are people out there paying $6,000/m for cords and reviewers talk about how the power cord (even though just a cord with no electronics) have been "tuned" but none go to the extremes (such as anyone would hear the difference in a blind test - my theory)

Oh please! 🙄

Onboard electronics in the device being powered!

And the cable may have noise attenuation/filtering components (passive) that can help remove such noise at source ... but I'm sure you already knew that and just wanted an argument. Go find someone else to argue with - whilst you may have experience with the Insurance industry, I actually know what I'm talking about on this subject.

Maybe you need to take another of your invisibility pills?

I was not picking up your comment on electronics I was stating the fact that the vast majority, if not all, of these types of cables have no electronics in them at all, passive, active, solar power or otherwise they are simply a plug, a cable and another plug.  It would be a different matter if they claimed they had some form of conditioner built in but they dont even claim that, they claim its all achieved by heavy gauge materials, heavy insulation and good joins.

Whilst I work in insurance I spend my pocket money on home audio so have spent years reading the naysayers and the believers but also the people that buy these cables and take them apart to show it really is only a mains cable even if they claim things like "4N oxygen-free copper (99.997%, OFC), 10AWG conductors, connectors are Hubbell HBL8215C, "hospital grade" plugs". There are no chips, capacitors, resisters or anything else inside (other than a fuse in the UK market versions) 

We get the likes of WhatHiFi? that claim the cable materially alter the sound whereas the naysays show the results of tests of these cables. http://archimago.blogspot.com/2020/02/measurements-do-power-cables-make.html is a particularly amusing review by a naysayer comparing a praised after market power cable to an aged 50' cable from a lawn mower which at typical loads at no difference at all and at high loads 0.1db difference which is most likely caused by the difference in length of cable. 

Olinda99

"So like I said, why on earth would I want to do that, other than to satisfy some chippy bloke on the inter- net who can't possibly imagine that cables do make a difference?"

Cables most certainly do make a difference. The question is if your (or anyone's) particular swap makes a difference or is it all imagined? That is not to be chippy or snide - it is simply what could happen. 

Username03725

Olinda99 said:

"So like I said, why on earth would I want to do that, other than to satisfy some chippy bloke on the inter- net who can't possibly imagine that cables do make a difference?"

Cables most certainly do make a difference. The question is if your (or anyone's) particular swap makes a difference or is it all imagined? That is not to be chippy or snide - it is simply what could happen. 

I reported what happened; you implicitly called me a liar and too stupid to grasp blind testing. That’s being chippy.

Carry on all. I can see you’re all desperate to be right and to be seen to be right and that bi-wiring, bi-amping, improved mains or speaker cables can never make any difference. I’ll just enjoy my system satisfied that it’s better than it was when I took it out of its boxes thanks to smoke, mirrors, snakes and their oily byproducts. Radio 3 HD is particularly good.

Ergates

Bendy_House said:

Well, I've just cut my first slice of humble pie... :-(

https://www.whathifi.com/ecosse/big-orange-mk2/review

What Hi-Fi have, in the past - before it was widely know to be impossible nonsense - written reviews of expensive HDMI cables saying they made the picture sharper, so I'd take anything they said on the subject with a pinch of salt large enough to kill an elephant.