EV Discussion thread

Grumpy_chap

Martyn1981 said:

Lastly, do you know of any concerns that BEV's will only last as long (or less) than an ICEV? 

No.

However, the fact an EV will last to space-ship mileage if that is done as high annual mileage, so large amounts of steady-state motorway mileage is no different to an ICE.

Battery condition deteriorating is a thing that is yet to be established either way.  One could make a reasonable concession that the older EVs currently available as an indicator may not be representative of the future for two reasons.  Firstly, the early-adopters will have taken greater care (and accepted greater inconvenience) than the masses that feel "forced" into an EV against their will.  Secondly, battery technology is improving on an exponential curve.

As we get to the point that there are equivalent cars to my 15 yo Focus, I am not convinced that these vehicles will remain having a value that makes repair on the "stuff" more sensible.  As vehicles get tatty, the desire starts to wain.  What may well happen is that the scrap value of an EV is well above the scrap value of an ICE (because of recovery of battery materials) but that does not necessarily relate to a general willingness to spend more in maintaining the 15 yo EV.

I am very interested in this.  Before covid I was very keen to get an EV and the cost to enter was a challenge along with journey range.  Journey range is now a much better choice and mostly resolved as a consideration so long as the correct vehicle is chosen, though price to enter remains a challenge.  I also now do far lower mileage than was the case before covid, so the payback assessment actually works out less favourably.

Looking at a change of vehicle will start to climb my agenda now that we are to return to office for one day per week as of next month and that will increase to two days per week later as the desire is to adopt hybrid working.
My default car would be a Mondeo.
Lower mileage means I could select something different (MX5?) or less economical (proper luxury saloon or SUV)
I could get an "it'll do" car for low capital outlay https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202209220009216
I'd like something more "special" than that, so A4 / Lexus ES, Jaguar XE: https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202209059463396
My wife says I need a sensible, comfortable, saloon car not a sports car.
In looking at the considerations for an EV, the options seem to be the MG EV's (which are nice but seem a bit lacking in "special") or the Tesla / EQE / i4 (which tick the "special" box but fail on the cost to enter box).
Fortunately, the Focus is reliable so I have no urgency and can keep looking for the market to offer a solution.

Exiled_Tyke

I found this video talking about the maintenance costs of Toyota HEVs.  Ok so it's not directly answering the question of how long will a BEV last but the argument applies to BEVs.   The video claims that HEV's wear out much more slowly mainly due to less heat being generated in the components.  And looking at the comments, someone claims they did 210k miles and didn't need to change the brake pads because of the regen braking. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fE7SFx8nLEk

Martyn1981

Grumpy_chap said:

Martyn1981 said:

Lastly, do you know of any concerns that BEV's will only last as long (or less) than an ICEV? 

No.

However, the fact an EV will last to space-ship mileage if that is done as high annual mileage, so large amounts of steady-state motorway mileage is no different to an ICE.

Battery condition deteriorating is a thing that is yet to be established either way.  One could make a reasonable concession that the older EVs currently available as an indicator may not be representative of the future for two reasons.  Firstly, the early-adopters will have taken greater care (and accepted greater inconvenience) than the masses that feel "forced" into an EV against their will.  Secondly, battery technology is improving on an exponential curve.

As we get to the point that there are equivalent cars to my 15 yo Focus, I am not convinced that these vehicles will remain having a value that makes repair on the "stuff" more sensible.  As vehicles get tatty, the desire starts to wain.  What may well happen is that the scrap value of an EV is well above the scrap value of an ICE (because of recovery of battery materials) but that does not necessarily relate to a general willingness to spend more in maintaining the 15 yo EV.

I am very interested in this.  Before covid I was very keen to get an EV and the cost to enter was a challenge along with journey range.  Journey range is now a much better choice and mostly resolved as a consideration so long as the correct vehicle is chosen, though price to enter remains a challenge.  I also now do far lower mileage than was the case before covid, so the payback assessment actually works out less favourably.

Looking at a change of vehicle will start to climb my agenda now that we are to return to office for one day per week as of next month and that will increase to two days per week later as the desire is to adopt hybrid working.
My default car would be a Mondeo.
Lower mileage means I could select something different (MX5?) or less economical (proper luxury saloon or SUV)
I could get an "it'll do" car for low capital outlay https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202209220009216
I'd like something more "special" than that, so A4 / Lexus ES, Jaguar XE: https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202209059463396
My wife says I need a sensible, comfortable, saloon car not a sports car.
In looking at the considerations for an EV, the options seem to be the MG EV's (which are nice but seem a bit lacking in "special") or the Tesla / EQE / i4 (which tick the "special" box but fail on the cost to enter box).
Fortunately, the Focus is reliable so I have no urgency and can keep looking for the market to offer a solution.

Regarding batteries, if it helps, you can look at the older batteries in the Tesla S & X in their impact report 2021, these give a remaining range of around 85-90% after 200k miles, see page 67 which is why I'd suggest that if the main drivetrain components (motor(s), batteries etc) are still extremely healthy, then I can't see why somebody wouldn't be wiling to maintain the vehicle, v's an ICEV which may need considerable expenditure on the drivetrain, making it uneconomic to maintain further. But that's just my opinion, and I'd be willing to spend money on a somewhat tatty BEV, if the drivetrain/batts were still working well, whereas I wouldn't do the same for a 150k mile ICEV, since by then you may be entering 'money pit' territory.

Interesting point about early adopters being more gentle. That's probably true, however you also have to consider that larger battery packs will also be treated more gently, so to speak. For instance the first Leaf's at 24kWh, now 64kWh, or the early Tesla S's at 60kWh, now 100kWh. As a battery pack gets larger, the individual cells are worked less for any given distance driven. Even the base model 3's useable batt has increased form around 50kWh to 60kWh over the last year or so (not exact numbers).

Like yourself, I expect battery conditions to improve over time, especially as most (when China is included) are now LFP, which seems able to manage more cycles and greater abuse. Not sure I agree with, nor even see your point about 'those forced into BEV's', not looking after them properly, that seems like a bit of a stretch. I think the implication that the expensive vehicle is not what they actually want, is wrong. BEV's are great vehicles, and folk will (I believe) accept them as superior vehicles, though I appreciate that purchase cost might create some negative feelings.

For most electrical items, built for long hard work, such as an electrical lawn mower v's a petrol one, they can take a beating. You can pop the leccy lawnmower away in October, and expect it to start first thing in March, with no real care. And whilst that's a rather extreme example, I appreciate, BEV's are built to do the job, and will of course have built in measures to minimise abuse, such as batteries being larger than the available use, to prevent over charging (though LFP's (again) seem far more tolerant anyway), and computers controlling acceleration and regen levels, to an extent.

Only my personal opinion, and you may well disagree, but I'd suggest it may be harder to abuse a BEV, than it is an ICEV, think of the young driver, or street racer, or gear misser, who may be over-revving the engine, abusing the clutch and gearbox etc.

Time will tell, and of course your fears may be well grounded, but I suspect that BEV's will long outlast ICEV's in terms of mileage, and I think this is already proving the case as the number of high mileage BEV's increases.


I wish you all the luck in the World regarding a future BEV purchase. It annoys me that prices are so high at the moment, but I guess that's just the way things are till supply ramps up, though Lithium could hold things back for quite a few more years. I think the MG's also look great, and offer a real VFM entry point, and whilst I agree with your wife that a sensible car is better than a sports car - the truth is that all BEV's (even our old 24kWh Leaf) offer instant/low speed torque that is actually a safety improvement IMO, when joining traffic, entering roundabouts, or carrying out safe and necessary overtakes. They are also a joy in queues and very steep (and or) windy roads, as no messing with gears is needed, and the vehicle doesn't strain, so to speak, just plods along quietly.

uk1

I'd appreciate an idea of what is currently the longest safest range of a car on a single charge these days.   I have a regular round trip of around 300 miles and I won't be considering a new car until it has that range with a margin of reassurance.  It's parked at the other address for a couple of weeks without any practical charging options.  My current petrol car on a very good day gives me 21mpg so it is in my plan to get something more sensible as soon as I can. Although it's motorway or A class roads I'd prefer a reasonable degree of comfort but I know I might need to compromise. A few names to look at would be really appreciated.  I haven't found a single recent article that seems to summarise. 

If there isn't currently anything that fits, is there any shareable wisdom or opinion on when the battery technology might provide such a car?

Thanks in advance.

Martyn1981

Hiya uk1, my thoughts are that you'll be struggling for a reliable year round 300 miles, unless you are willing to get into  six figure prices for monsters like the Tesla S, Lucid Air etc with 400 miles. Though a secondhand S might suit, but still big money and I don't know your budget.

I would say that in my experience, you will get 4 miles per kWh from a long range Tesla 3 or Y, on motorways if you keep to 70mph, so 300 is possible, but again I appreciate this is expensive. However charging won't be a problem. Speaking of which, you say 300 is your requirement, and I read that as battery range, excluding charging? But if you are happy to do some fast charging, perhaps 30mins (depending on vehicle and charging speeds), then one stop each way will suffice for a whole host of modern BEV's.

Lots of other BEV's at lower prices are now in the mid to high 200 mile range, but again (sorry) the longer range cars are newer, so prices are high.

Obviously range will vary depending on conditions, but this can do an extent be remedied by adjusting your driving*. In fact, most people probably drive a bit slower in colder, darker, wetter conditions, than during a sunny summer day.

I think you will find the EV-database a great source of info. But just one small caveat, the low figures they give for cold weather conditions are at -10C, which I'm not denying is possible in the UK, but probably at the very extreme end.


Edit - sorry forgot your final question. Again, just my opinion, but I'm not sure range on motorways will increase all that much. This is down to physics and I suspect we'll always need around 250Wh per mile (4 miles/kWh), so whilst batteries may get lighter, more energy dense, cheaper, tougher and so on, I'm not sure that common packs will grow much past 60-80kWh for most BEV's (talking common production cars here). But I could be totally wrong. Personally I wouldn't pay more for a bigger battery, I'd go with charging on route when necessary.

Just to be clear I'm talking about an average, well proportioned car, like the Ford Focus. But super efficient vehicles like the Aptera exist with 7+ miles per kWh, but may not be practical for long journeys.



* Funny story (IMO) - I read an article a few months back that looked at efficiency of Nissan Leaf's v's Tesla Model 3's. The real world testing showed that they roughly got 3.5m/kWh for the leaf, and 4m/kWh for the TM3. However when they checked the results for Leaf and 3 owners, the numbers reversed, with the Leafs getting 4 and the 3's getting 3.5.

The difference was down to driving characteristics as people drove to the cars ability. So the Leaf drivers knowing that range was a bit less, chargers less available, and charging speeds lower, drove more conservatively. Whereas the 3 drivers with longer range and a proliferation of superchargers, drove the vehicles harder. [Not actual numbers, but as an example, say the testing results were based on 70mph, then the Leafs may be doing 65, and the 3's 75.] So results can be improved (or worsened) by the way you drive, so adapting to conditions can make up for lower efficiency, but the price may be some extra time.

uk1

Martyn1981 said:

Hiya uk1, my thoughts are that you'll be struggling for a reliable year round 300 miles, unless you are willing to get into  six figure prices for monsters like the Tesla S, Lucid Air etc with 400 miles. Though a secondhand S might suit, but still big money and I don't know your budget.

I would say that in my experience, you will get 4 miles per kWh from a long range Tesla 3 or Y, on motorways if you keep to 70mph, so 300 is possible, but again I appreciate this is expensive. However charging won't be a problem. Speaking of which, you say 300 is your requirement, and I read that as battery range, excluding charging? But if you are happy to do some fast charging, perhaps 30mins (depending on vehicle and charging speeds), then one stop each way will suffice for a whole host of modern BEV's.

Lots of other BEV's at lower prices are now in the mid to high 200 mile range, but again (sorry) the longer range cars are newer, so prices are high.

Obviously range will vary depending on conditions, but this can do an extent be remedied by adjusting your driving*. In fact, most people probably drive a bit slower in colder, darker, wetter conditions, than during a sunny summer day.

I think you will find the EV-database a great source of info. But just one small caveat, the low figures they give for cold weather conditions are at -10C, which I'm not denying is possible in the UK, but probably at the very extreme end.


Edit - sorry forgot your final question. Again, just my opinion, but I'm not sure range on motorways will increase all that much. This is down to physics and I suspect we'll always need around 250Wh per mile (4 miles/kWh), so whilst batteries may get lighter, more energy dense, cheaper, tougher and so on, I'm not sure that common packs will grow much past 60-80kWh for most BEV's (talking common production cars here). But I could be totally wrong. Personally I wouldn't pay more for a bigger battery, I'd go with charging on route when necessary.

Just to be clear I'm talking about an average, well proportioned car, like the Ford Focus. But super efficient vehicles like the Aptera exist with 7+ miles per kWh, but may not be practical for long journeys.



* Funny story (IMO) - I read an article a few months back that looked at efficiency of Nissan Leaf's v's Tesla Model 3's. The real world testing showed that they roughly got 3.5m/kWh for the leaf, and 4m/kWh for the TM3. However when they checked the results for Leaf and 3 owners, the numbers reversed, with the Leafs getting 4 and the 3's getting 3.5.

The difference was down to driving characteristics as people drove to the cars ability. So the Leaf drivers knowing that range was a bit less, chargers less available, and charging speeds lower, drove more conservatively. Whereas the 3 drivers with longer range and a proliferation of superchargers, drove the vehicles harder. [Not actual numbers, but as an example, say the testing results were based on 70mph, then the Leafs may be doing 65, and the 3's 75.] So results can be improved (or worsened) by the way you drive, so adapting to conditions can make up for lower efficiency, but the price may be some extra time.

Martyn,

Can’t tell you how much I appreciate your answer.  

It  has fleshed out the immediate outlook for me with respect to what we really need.  I have a car whose only crime is extremely poor mpg.  I travel during the night in a very comfortable car that only has 40k on the clock and keeping to 70 is pretty unlikely (I know I’m naughty) and stopping on the way out and back is far too many compromises to do.  So the range is going to be even less a suitable car extremely expensive - never as good as the current car - and I don’t need and can avoid paying to have a power point straight away when I have my PV system purchased and installed. We really don’t do any local low miles driving. I fill it up with petrol once for each round trip. 

So your opinion has been extraordinarily helpful to me! Thanks again.

Martyn1981

uk1 said:

Martyn1981 said:

Hiya uk1, my thoughts are that you'll be struggling for a reliable year round 300 miles, unless you are willing to get into  six figure prices for monsters like the Tesla S, Lucid Air etc with 400 miles. Though a secondhand S might suit, but still big money and I don't know your budget.

I would say that in my experience, you will get 4 miles per kWh from a long range Tesla 3 or Y, on motorways if you keep to 70mph, so 300 is possible, but again I appreciate this is expensive. However charging won't be a problem. Speaking of which, you say 300 is your requirement, and I read that as battery range, excluding charging? But if you are happy to do some fast charging, perhaps 30mins (depending on vehicle and charging speeds), then one stop each way will suffice for a whole host of modern BEV's.

Lots of other BEV's at lower prices are now in the mid to high 200 mile range, but again (sorry) the longer range cars are newer, so prices are high.

Obviously range will vary depending on conditions, but this can do an extent be remedied by adjusting your driving*. In fact, most people probably drive a bit slower in colder, darker, wetter conditions, than during a sunny summer day.

I think you will find the EV-database a great source of info. But just one small caveat, the low figures they give for cold weather conditions are at -10C, which I'm not denying is possible in the UK, but probably at the very extreme end.


Edit - sorry forgot your final question. Again, just my opinion, but I'm not sure range on motorways will increase all that much. This is down to physics and I suspect we'll always need around 250Wh per mile (4 miles/kWh), so whilst batteries may get lighter, more energy dense, cheaper, tougher and so on, I'm not sure that common packs will grow much past 60-80kWh for most BEV's (talking common production cars here). But I could be totally wrong. Personally I wouldn't pay more for a bigger battery, I'd go with charging on route when necessary.

Just to be clear I'm talking about an average, well proportioned car, like the Ford Focus. But super efficient vehicles like the Aptera exist with 7+ miles per kWh, but may not be practical for long journeys.



* Funny story (IMO) - I read an article a few months back that looked at efficiency of Nissan Leaf's v's Tesla Model 3's. The real world testing showed that they roughly got 3.5m/kWh for the leaf, and 4m/kWh for the TM3. However when they checked the results for Leaf and 3 owners, the numbers reversed, with the Leafs getting 4 and the 3's getting 3.5.

The difference was down to driving characteristics as people drove to the cars ability. So the Leaf drivers knowing that range was a bit less, chargers less available, and charging speeds lower, drove more conservatively. Whereas the 3 drivers with longer range and a proliferation of superchargers, drove the vehicles harder. [Not actual numbers, but as an example, say the testing results were based on 70mph, then the Leafs may be doing 65, and the 3's 75.] So results can be improved (or worsened) by the way you drive, so adapting to conditions can make up for lower efficiency, but the price may be some extra time.

Martyn,

Can’t tell you how much I appreciate your answer.  

It  has fleshed out the immediate outlook for me with respect to what we really need.  I have a car whose only crime is extremely poor mpg.  I travel during the night in a very comfortable car that only has 40k on the clock and keeping to 70 is pretty unlikely (I know I’m naughty) and stopping on the way out and back is far too many compromises to do.  So the range is going to be even less a suitable car extremely expensive - never as good as the current car - and I don’t need and can avoid paying to have a power point straight away when I have my PV system purchased and installed. We really don’t do any local low miles driving. I fill it up with petrol once for each round trip. 

So your opinion has been extraordinarily helpful to me! Thanks again.

My pleasure mate.

Just had a look at Tesla's secondhand inventory, and for big bucks (£40k to £50k) you can get 350-400 miles, with battery packs of 90 or 100kWh. These are staggering vehicles, I've eyed them up on a jaunt around the Brecon Beacons with the Tesla Owners Group. But big money, and just a small concern I have that may seem silly, they are American sized, which means they are a bit wider, say 4-6 inches, which may not sound like much, but if you look at my Avatar, of my first car, I have to say that that extra width can make life interesting in tight spots, so for motorway cruising great, but for city life, not so much fun.

BTW, that much beloved early car of mine was at best 16mpg, typically 12mpg, so I have a lot of sins to make up for now, but ironically our BEV has 2.5x as much power as that all show, and no go car of my youth. All together now, 'We've got a long way to go, and a short time to get there, I'm east bound, just watch ol' "Bandit" run.'

Mart.

uk1

Martyn1981 said:

uk1 said:

Martyn1981 said:

Hiya uk1, my thoughts are that you'll be struggling for a reliable year round 300 miles, unless you are willing to get into  six figure prices for monsters like the Tesla S, Lucid Air etc with 400 miles. Though a secondhand S might suit, but still big money and I don't know your budget.

I would say that in my experience, you will get 4 miles per kWh from a long range Tesla 3 or Y, on motorways if you keep to 70mph, so 300 is possible, but again I appreciate this is expensive. However charging won't be a problem. Speaking of which, you say 300 is your requirement, and I read that as battery range, excluding charging? But if you are happy to do some fast charging, perhaps 30mins (depending on vehicle and charging speeds), then one stop each way will suffice for a whole host of modern BEV's.

Lots of other BEV's at lower prices are now in the mid to high 200 mile range, but again (sorry) the longer range cars are newer, so prices are high.

Obviously range will vary depending on conditions, but this can do an extent be remedied by adjusting your driving*. In fact, most people probably drive a bit slower in colder, darker, wetter conditions, than during a sunny summer day.

I think you will find the EV-database a great source of info. But just one small caveat, the low figures they give for cold weather conditions are at -10C, which I'm not denying is possible in the UK, but probably at the very extreme end.


Edit - sorry forgot your final question. Again, just my opinion, but I'm not sure range on motorways will increase all that much. This is down to physics and I suspect we'll always need around 250Wh per mile (4 miles/kWh), so whilst batteries may get lighter, more energy dense, cheaper, tougher and so on, I'm not sure that common packs will grow much past 60-80kWh for most BEV's (talking common production cars here). But I could be totally wrong. Personally I wouldn't pay more for a bigger battery, I'd go with charging on route when necessary.

Just to be clear I'm talking about an average, well proportioned car, like the Ford Focus. But super efficient vehicles like the Aptera exist with 7+ miles per kWh, but may not be practical for long journeys.



* Funny story (IMO) - I read an article a few months back that looked at efficiency of Nissan Leaf's v's Tesla Model 3's. The real world testing showed that they roughly got 3.5m/kWh for the leaf, and 4m/kWh for the TM3. However when they checked the results for Leaf and 3 owners, the numbers reversed, with the Leafs getting 4 and the 3's getting 3.5.

The difference was down to driving characteristics as people drove to the cars ability. So the Leaf drivers knowing that range was a bit less, chargers less available, and charging speeds lower, drove more conservatively. Whereas the 3 drivers with longer range and a proliferation of superchargers, drove the vehicles harder. [Not actual numbers, but as an example, say the testing results were based on 70mph, then the Leafs may be doing 65, and the 3's 75.] So results can be improved (or worsened) by the way you drive, so adapting to conditions can make up for lower efficiency, but the price may be some extra time.

Martyn,

Can’t tell you how much I appreciate your answer.  

It  has fleshed out the immediate outlook for me with respect to what we really need.  I have a car whose only crime is extremely poor mpg.  I travel during the night in a very comfortable car that only has 40k on the clock and keeping to 70 is pretty unlikely (I know I’m naughty) and stopping on the way out and back is far too many compromises to do.  So the range is going to be even less a suitable car extremely expensive - never as good as the current car - and I don’t need and can avoid paying to have a power point straight away when I have my PV system purchased and installed. We really don’t do any local low miles driving. I fill it up with petrol once for each round trip. 

So your opinion has been extraordinarily helpful to me! Thanks again.

My pleasure mate.

Just had a look at Tesla's secondhand inventory, and for big bucks (£40k to £50k) you can get 350-400 miles, with battery packs of 90 or 100kWh. These are staggering vehicles, I've eyed them up on a jaunt around the Brecon Beacons with the Tesla Owners Group. But big money, and just a small concern I have that may seem silly, they are American sized, which means they are a bit wider, say 4-6 inches, which may not sound like much, but if you look at my Avatar, of my first car, I have to say that that extra width can make life interesting in tight spots, so for motorway cruising great, but for city life, not so much fun.

BTW, that much beloved early car of mine was at best 16mpg, typically 12mpg, so I have a lot of sins to make up for now, but ironically our BEV has 2.5x as much power as that all show, and no go car of my youth. All together now, 'We've got a long way to go, and a short time to get there, I'm east bound, just watch ol' "Bandit" run.'

Mart.

Thanks again.

Oddly one of the things I’m trying to escape from is that whilst we have a large double garage it has two separate garage doors and my current car only has one inch clearance each side.  And so does the place at the other end of this regular 300 mile trip.  So the palaver in getting the car in and out of both garages involves considerable stress for two people, a torch, open windows and lots of shouting and manoeuvring with  the odd bit of highly insensitive exchanged ideas on life and personal observations about IQ levels and perceived shortcomings thereof followed by extended periods of sulks and refused services.  

A Tesla doesn’t sound like a step towards permanent relationship building.

michaels

uk1 said:

Martyn1981 said:

uk1 said:

Martyn1981 said:

Hiya uk1, my thoughts are that you'll be struggling for a reliable year round 300 miles, unless you are willing to get into  six figure prices for monsters like the Tesla S, Lucid Air etc with 400 miles. Though a secondhand S might suit, but still big money and I don't know your budget.

I would say that in my experience, you will get 4 miles per kWh from a long range Tesla 3 or Y, on motorways if you keep to 70mph, so 300 is possible, but again I appreciate this is expensive. However charging won't be a problem. Speaking of which, you say 300 is your requirement, and I read that as battery range, excluding charging? But if you are happy to do some fast charging, perhaps 30mins (depending on vehicle and charging speeds), then one stop each way will suffice for a whole host of modern BEV's.

Lots of other BEV's at lower prices are now in the mid to high 200 mile range, but again (sorry) the longer range cars are newer, so prices are high.

Obviously range will vary depending on conditions, but this can do an extent be remedied by adjusting your driving*. In fact, most people probably drive a bit slower in colder, darker, wetter conditions, than during a sunny summer day.

I think you will find the EV-database a great source of info. But just one small caveat, the low figures they give for cold weather conditions are at -10C, which I'm not denying is possible in the UK, but probably at the very extreme end.


Edit - sorry forgot your final question. Again, just my opinion, but I'm not sure range on motorways will increase all that much. This is down to physics and I suspect we'll always need around 250Wh per mile (4 miles/kWh), so whilst batteries may get lighter, more energy dense, cheaper, tougher and so on, I'm not sure that common packs will grow much past 60-80kWh for most BEV's (talking common production cars here). But I could be totally wrong. Personally I wouldn't pay more for a bigger battery, I'd go with charging on route when necessary.

Just to be clear I'm talking about an average, well proportioned car, like the Ford Focus. But super efficient vehicles like the Aptera exist with 7+ miles per kWh, but may not be practical for long journeys.



* Funny story (IMO) - I read an article a few months back that looked at efficiency of Nissan Leaf's v's Tesla Model 3's. The real world testing showed that they roughly got 3.5m/kWh for the leaf, and 4m/kWh for the TM3. However when they checked the results for Leaf and 3 owners, the numbers reversed, with the Leafs getting 4 and the 3's getting 3.5.

The difference was down to driving characteristics as people drove to the cars ability. So the Leaf drivers knowing that range was a bit less, chargers less available, and charging speeds lower, drove more conservatively. Whereas the 3 drivers with longer range and a proliferation of superchargers, drove the vehicles harder. [Not actual numbers, but as an example, say the testing results were based on 70mph, then the Leafs may be doing 65, and the 3's 75.] So results can be improved (or worsened) by the way you drive, so adapting to conditions can make up for lower efficiency, but the price may be some extra time.

Martyn,

Can’t tell you how much I appreciate your answer.  

It  has fleshed out the immediate outlook for me with respect to what we really need.  I have a car whose only crime is extremely poor mpg.  I travel during the night in a very comfortable car that only has 40k on the clock and keeping to 70 is pretty unlikely (I know I’m naughty) and stopping on the way out and back is far too many compromises to do.  So the range is going to be even less a suitable car extremely expensive - never as good as the current car - and I don’t need and can avoid paying to have a power point straight away when I have my PV system purchased and installed. We really don’t do any local low miles driving. I fill it up with petrol once for each round trip. 

So your opinion has been extraordinarily helpful to me! Thanks again.

My pleasure mate.

Just had a look at Tesla's secondhand inventory, and for big bucks (£40k to £50k) you can get 350-400 miles, with battery packs of 90 or 100kWh. These are staggering vehicles, I've eyed them up on a jaunt around the Brecon Beacons with the Tesla Owners Group. But big money, and just a small concern I have that may seem silly, they are American sized, which means they are a bit wider, say 4-6 inches, which may not sound like much, but if you look at my Avatar, of my first car, I have to say that that extra width can make life interesting in tight spots, so for motorway cruising great, but for city life, not so much fun.

BTW, that much beloved early car of mine was at best 16mpg, typically 12mpg, so I have a lot of sins to make up for now, but ironically our BEV has 2.5x as much power as that all show, and no go car of my youth. All together now, 'We've got a long way to go, and a short time to get there, I'm east bound, just watch ol' "Bandit" run.'

Mart.

Thanks again.

Oddly one of the things I’m trying to escape from is that whilst we have a large double garage it has two separate garage doors and my current car only has one inch clearance each side.  And so does the place at the other end of this regular 300 mile trip.  So the palaver in getting the car in and out of both garages involves considerable stress for two people, a torch, open windows and lots of shouting and manoeuvring with  the odd bit of highly insensitive exchanged ideas on life and personal observations about IQ levels and perceived shortcomings thereof followed by extended periods of sulks and refused services.  

A Tesla doesn’t sound like a step towards permanent relationship building.

Can Tesla/summon/autopark handle tight garages like that?

Grumpy_chap

Just received a marketing e-mail from TESLA advising they now have 1000 supercharger posts installed in UK across over 100 locations.