EV Discussion thread

JKenH

1961Nick said:

MeteredOut said:

I wonder what percentage of EV car charges are done at home versus out on the road. Anyone got any figures?

I suspect the percentage of ICE fuelling at home is lower.

I wonder if, on average over the lifetime of ownership of a car, EV owners spend less cumulative time waiting for a charge to take place (including on-the-road charging wait times, but excluding at-home charge times) compared to the time ICE drivers spend filling and paying for their fuel.

@JKenH, feel free to ignore if too personal, but do you have a another job alongside your full time job of trawling the internet for articles that might have a slight negative vibe towards EVs so you can post them here?

100% home charging in my case & that's after 2.5 years of driving an EV. That's saved me many hours of standing on a wet forecourt in the driving rain pumping derv. Ken's 2 minutes to fill the Picanto is exceptional as it used to take me 6 minutes to fill a 435d, pay for the fuel & continue my journey.

A couple of friends that do longer trips & use public charging generally just add enough supercharger miles to complete their journey. This is typically a 10 minute 25kWh 'splash & dash' rather than the often quoted 20% - 80% or 100% recharge. Of course that 25kWh can be added anywhere once the car has travelled around 120 miles which makes finding a convenient supercharger pretty easy.

I think a lot of the negative EV press is due to people buying an EV with a range that doesn't meet their needs. The WLTP test doesn't help as it overstates the range of all EVs & massively so in winter. If you buy the right EV for your needs ownership will be easy, get the wrong one & it'll probably be a nightmare.

I did more recently add that a fill up of my motorhome with 75 litres of diesel took just over 4 minutes but part of that was my wife queuing to pay. The cost was £111 so pay at pump was not an option but that probably would have saved time. I acknowledge that petrol pumps generally require you to enter a PIN unlike public chargers which allow contactless. 

Perhaps you had a slow diesel pump as pumps should be able to add 30-40litres of diesel per minute. I haven’t encountered any uncovered petrol filling stations but possibly they do exist or if the wind is blowing a gale you may get wet. Apart from Gridserve forecoourts nearly all EV chargers are exposed, even the new MFG station on theM180 only has a token canopy.

When it comes to payment, while contactless is far more common now,new rapids are still being introduced without it. See this video. https://youtu.be/UCZLG0IGQ-g?si=MDETt4viLAi3PmJI
Podpoint are still installing chargers that require an app to operate them. If you are only an occasional user of public chargers that is quite a pain.

Superchargers are great. I’ve never used one but all reports say they are seamless, but there are areas of the country coverage, Lincolnshire an East/North Yorkshire spring to mind. There are literally none East of the A1 See this map. 

JKenH

shinytop said:

1961Nick said:

MeteredOut said:

I wonder what percentage of EV car charges are done at home versus out on the road. Anyone got any figures?

I suspect the percentage of ICE fuelling at home is lower.

I wonder if, on average over the lifetime of ownership of a car, EV owners spend less cumulative time waiting for a charge to take place (including on-the-road charging wait times, but excluding at-home charge times) compared to the time ICE drivers spend filling and paying for their fuel.

@JKenH, feel free to ignore if too personal, but do you have a another job alongside your full time job of trawling the internet for articles that might have a slight negative vibe towards EVs so you can post them here?

100% home charging in my case & that's after 2.5 years of driving an EV. That's saved me many hours of standing on a wet forecourt in the driving rain pumping derv. Ken's 2 minutes to fill the Picanto is exceptional as it used to take me 6 minutes to fill a 435d, pay for the fuel & continue my journey.

A couple of friends that do longer trips & use public charging generally just add enough supercharger miles to complete their journey. This is typically a 10 minute 25kWh 'splash & dash' rather than the often quoted 20% - 80% or 100% recharge. Of course that 25kWh can be added anywhere once the car has travelled around 120 miles which makes finding a convenient supercharger pretty easy.

I think a lot of the negative EV press is due to people buying an EV with a range that doesn't meet their needs. The WLTP test doesn't help as it overstates the range of all EVs & massively so in winter. If you buy the right EV for your needs ownership will be easy, get the wrong one & it'll probably be a nightmare.

That summarises the main issue (IMO) in a nutshell.  We are not going to save the planet by driving large, fast, expensive diesel coupes or their even larger and faster EV equivalents.  Maybe we need to be driving more Kia Picantos.  

There are a couple of EVs that would be right for my needs; unfortunately I can't afford them.  

The Harry’s Garage video made that point. Why are so many EVs manufactured with over 300bhp? Do you really need that on the public road - well maybe yes you do with 2.5 tonnes of Audi, BMW or Mercedes SUV to lug about. Because of their weight EVs are never going to be fun to drive. You will get a lot more fun out of an MX5 or a sporty Fiesta with less than 200bhp. My Golf has 115bhp and that is perfectly adequate for me and I suspect most other road users. And yes I do like fast cars. I have owned a couple of Lotus and a TVR but they are too fast to properly enjoy on the public road. My mate who runs a well known motor racing team and has won every motor racing championship he has entered had a go in my wife’s old Picanto and commented how much fun it was. He bought my old 115bhp diesel Golf and used it as his daily driver putting tens of thousands of miles on it while his BMW M3 sat virtually unused.

1961Nick

JKenH said:

1961Nick said:

MeteredOut said:

I wonder what percentage of EV car charges are done at home versus out on the road. Anyone got any figures?

I suspect the percentage of ICE fuelling at home is lower.

I wonder if, on average over the lifetime of ownership of a car, EV owners spend less cumulative time waiting for a charge to take place (including on-the-road charging wait times, but excluding at-home charge times) compared to the time ICE drivers spend filling and paying for their fuel.

@JKenH, feel free to ignore if too personal, but do you have a another job alongside your full time job of trawling the internet for articles that might have a slight negative vibe towards EVs so you can post them here?

100% home charging in my case & that's after 2.5 years of driving an EV. That's saved me many hours of standing on a wet forecourt in the driving rain pumping derv. Ken's 2 minutes to fill the Picanto is exceptional as it used to take me 6 minutes to fill a 435d, pay for the fuel & continue my journey.

A couple of friends that do longer trips & use public charging generally just add enough supercharger miles to complete their journey. This is typically a 10 minute 25kWh 'splash & dash' rather than the often quoted 20% - 80% or 100% recharge. Of course that 25kWh can be added anywhere once the car has travelled around 120 miles which makes finding a convenient supercharger pretty easy.

I think a lot of the negative EV press is due to people buying an EV with a range that doesn't meet their needs. The WLTP test doesn't help as it overstates the range of all EVs & massively so in winter. If you buy the right EV for your needs ownership will be easy, get the wrong one & it'll probably be a nightmare.

I did more recently add that a fill up of my motorhome with 75 litres of diesel took just over 4 minutes but part of that was my wife queuing to pay. The cost was £111 so pay at pump was not an option but that probably would have saved time. I acknowledge that petrol pumps generally require you to enter a PIN unlike public chargers which allow contactless. 

Perhaps you had a slow diesel pump as pumps should be able to add 30-40litres of diesel per minute. I haven’t encountered any uncovered petrol filling stations but possibly they do exist or if the wind is blowing a gale you may get wet. Apart from Gridserve forecoourts nearly all EV chargers are exposed, even the new MFG station on theM180 only has a token canopy.

When it comes to payment, while contactless is far more common now,new rapids are still being introduced without it. See this video. https://youtu.be/UCZLG0IGQ-g?si=MDETt4viLAi3PmJI
Podpoint are still installing chargers that require an app to operate them. If you are only an occasional user of public chargers that is quite a pain.

Superchargers are great. I’ve never used one but all reports say they are seamless, but there are areas of the country coverage, Lincolnshire an East/North Yorkshire spring to mind. There are literally none East of the A1 See this map. 

I agree that everywhere East of us isn't covered by the supercharger network. Fortunately the Tesla has enough range to travel anywhere in that region without the need for public charging aided by the fact that the journey speeds are very low so the efficiency is very high. I guess that if I ventured out in sub zero temperatures that seriously impacted the range then public charging might be necessary. As I'm now retired that's pretty unlikely. Knowing where the superchargers are, that they will work & how busy they are, provides reassurance during any trips that might become marginal on range.

noitsnotme

JKenH said:

shinytop said:

1961Nick said:

MeteredOut said:

I wonder what percentage of EV car charges are done at home versus out on the road. Anyone got any figures?

I suspect the percentage of ICE fuelling at home is lower.

I wonder if, on average over the lifetime of ownership of a car, EV owners spend less cumulative time waiting for a charge to take place (including on-the-road charging wait times, but excluding at-home charge times) compared to the time ICE drivers spend filling and paying for their fuel.

@JKenH, feel free to ignore if too personal, but do you have a another job alongside your full time job of trawling the internet for articles that might have a slight negative vibe towards EVs so you can post them here?

100% home charging in my case & that's after 2.5 years of driving an EV. That's saved me many hours of standing on a wet forecourt in the driving rain pumping derv. Ken's 2 minutes to fill the Picanto is exceptional as it used to take me 6 minutes to fill a 435d, pay for the fuel & continue my journey.

A couple of friends that do longer trips & use public charging generally just add enough supercharger miles to complete their journey. This is typically a 10 minute 25kWh 'splash & dash' rather than the often quoted 20% - 80% or 100% recharge. Of course that 25kWh can be added anywhere once the car has travelled around 120 miles which makes finding a convenient supercharger pretty easy.

I think a lot of the negative EV press is due to people buying an EV with a range that doesn't meet their needs. The WLTP test doesn't help as it overstates the range of all EVs & massively so in winter. If you buy the right EV for your needs ownership will be easy, get the wrong one & it'll probably be a nightmare.

That summarises the main issue (IMO) in a nutshell.  We are not going to save the planet by driving large, fast, expensive diesel coupes or their even larger and faster EV equivalents.  Maybe we need to be driving more Kia Picantos.  

There are a couple of EVs that would be right for my needs; unfortunately I can't afford them.  

Because of their weight EVs are never going to be fun to drive.

I wholeheartedly disagree.  I had just as much fun in a borrowed Model 3 dual motor as I did in my Subaru Impreza WRX with Prodrive Performance Pack upgrade.  I was sensible this time round and leased a Model Y single motor as it saved around £5k over the 3 year term.  But when I retire I'll probably splash out on a MYP or something similar from another EV manufacturer, depending what's on offer at the time.

MeteredOut

JKenH said:

MeteredOut said:

I wonder what percentage of EV car charges are done at home versus out on the road. Anyone got any figures?

I suspect the percentage of ICE fuelling at home is lower.

I wonder if, on average over the lifetime of ownership of a car, EV owners spend less cumulative time waiting for a charge to take place (including on-the-road charging wait times, but excluding at-home charge times) compared to the time ICE drivers spend filling and paying for their fuel.

@JKenH, feel free to ignore if too personal, but do you have a another job alongside your full time job of trawling the internet for articles that might have a slight negative vibe towards EVs so you can post them here?

Ignoring home charging (as you suggest)* I imagine most people on this forum will spend less time at public chargers than I do filling my car up, paying etc. We do around 3000 miles in the Picanto, so about 10 fill ups a year as we run it quite low and 6000 miles in the  Golf (including my daughter’s usage) so maybe 12 - 15 fill ups. Let’s say 25 fill ups a year so around an hour a year. I usually fill up on a regular shopping day, either at the supermarket or more recently it has been at the independent which is 0.5 mile off route when going to Asda or Tesco but on route to Morrisons. 

My motorhome gets filled up around 5 or 6 times a year and this week I put 75 litres in it. Total time, including paying, was just over 4 minutes as my wife had to queue to pay (over £100). Normally I fill up on route on holiday or at a supermarket near my destination when topping up with food. This week I was using it to deliver a bed and as I had less than 100 miles range we popped into Tesco when passing. 

Erring on the side of caution I would say 1h 30m spent filling up for around 12,000 miles motoring in total. 

I would imagine that 1h 30m equates to 3 or 4 rapid charges so if you public charge less than 3 or 4 times a year you’ll spend less time waiting to charge than we, as a family, spend filling up. I would add a couple of caveats. I have heard some users say they avoid the more expensive chargers at motorway services and seek out alternatives close to their route. These detours of course take time and perhaps should be factored in. If you are seeking out Tesla chargers only then unless there are Superchargers on your route you may have to take a detour or make less than optimum stops and that should perhaps be factored in. Do you also factor in time taken looking for chargers - the all important planning that I was told I hadn’t done.

In the last year of owning my Leaf IIRC I had visited around 20 chargers. I remember on at least two occasions taking more than an hour to get a charge due to chargers not working properly and queuing so it wouldn’t surprise me if my hours wasted on public charging experiences ran into double figures.

*I’m not sure we should completely ignore home charging but I won’t argue my case here.

I will answer the question posed in your last paragraph in a separate post. 

Edit: here is an extract from  a post I made in 2022 about the wasted time on a single trip

According to Google Maps my whole journey (without stops) was supposed to take around 2h10m. (Currently it is showing as 2h13m and on Saturday it was 2h7m). My journey yesterday took 3h30m, 1h20m longer than Google estimates were I doing it in an ICE car, yet I only actually spent 50 minutes charging and I completed the drive home from charging at Huntingdon faster than estimated. The other 40 minutes plus were wasted going off route twice to charging stations, checking the status of chargers, planning an additional stop and driving at 50mph to make sure I reached the charger. That doesn’t even take into account the abortive stop on Saturday.

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6072181/battery-electric-vehicle-news-enjoying-the-transportation-revolution/p467

If you follow the thread a little further you will see posts suggesting I should have taken an alternative route where chargers were located in small rural towns. I compared the routes on Google and it would have taken quite a bit longer. 

Thanks for the thoughts. Picking up on one point, i did not say to ignore home charging, but to ignore the charging-time element of it (ie. because you're not actively waiting for the car to charge - you're time is your own). There is obviously the plug/unplug element of charging at home, but that is very small (albeit a bit more for those that choose an untethered cable).

Grumpy_chap

1961Nick said:

Ken's 2 minutes to fill the Picanto is exceptional 

That is optimistic.
Then again, a little upthread there was a comment that plugging in and unplugging the Home EV charger is 15 seconds (IIRC).  That also seems optimistic.  

1961Nick said:

Of course that 25kWh can be added anywhere once the car has travelled around 120 miles which makes finding a convenient supercharger pretty easy.

Although, as far as I can understand the Tesla app, the route planner with the feature to schedule SC stops is not as flexible as that.  It only seems to offer one option for where to charge, which I think is partly linked to Tesla trying to balance demand at any time across the network to avoid waiting (which is a good thing) but it does mean less driver choice of where to stop.

Is there a way to set a route and have a choice of SC options presented?
It would be really good if you could put in your route and the options were presented:
 - SC stop 1, ETA 14:00, forecast no wait
 - SC stop 2, ETA 15:15, forecast busy
 - SC stop 3, ETA 15:45, forecast no wait
 - SC stop 4, ETA 16:45, forecast no wait
So, setting off at lunch time, I could select stop 3 for a mid-afternoon leg stretch and comfort break.
I only ever seem to get offered one option of SC and have always taken that.  (Coincidentally, they've always been convenient for desired rest breaks but that is likely more luck than judgement.)

1961Nick

Grumpy_chap said:

1961Nick said:

Ken's 2 minutes to fill the Picanto is exceptional 

That is optimistic.
Then again, a little upthread there was a comment that plugging in and unplugging the Home EV charger is 15 seconds (IIRC).  That also seems optimistic.  

1961Nick said:

Of course that 25kWh can be added anywhere once the car has travelled around 120 miles which makes finding a convenient supercharger pretty easy.

Although, as far as I can understand the Tesla app, the route planner with the feature to schedule SC stops is not as flexible as that.  It only seems to offer one option for where to charge, which I think is partly linked to Tesla trying to balance demand at any time across the network to avoid waiting (which is a good thing) but it does mean less driver choice of where to stop.

Is there a way to set a route and have a choice of SC options presented?
It would be really good if you could put in your route and the options were presented:
 - SC stop 1, ETA 14:00, forecast no wait
 - SC stop 2, ETA 15:15, forecast busy
 - SC stop 3, ETA 15:45, forecast no wait
 - SC stop 4, ETA 16:45, forecast no wait
So, setting off at lunch time, I could select stop 3 for a mid-afternoon leg stretch and comfort break.
I only ever seem to get offered one option of SC and have always taken that.  (Coincidentally, they've always been convenient for desired rest breaks but that is likely more luck than judgement.)

I think the Tesla algorithm is pretty good at figuring out the best stop for you & Tesla. However, there's nothing stopping you from selecting a supercharger from the list on the navigation & then navigating there instead of the stop Tesla have chosen. 

Grumpy_chap

1961Nick said:

I think the Tesla algorithm is pretty good at figuring out the best stop for you & Tesla. However, there's nothing stopping you from selecting a supercharger from the list on the navigation & then navigating there instead of the stop Tesla have chosen. 

Thanks, but I don't think I've ever had a list on the navigation, only ever one option presented.
I have not found a way to force the system to allow a stop unless it thinks I need a stop.  This could be useful if, for example doing a journey and knowing I will need a charge on the return.  It may be preferable to force a charge on the way there and then do the return non-stop.

JKenH

Grumpy_chap said:

1961Nick said:

Ken's 2 minutes to fill the Picanto is exceptional 

That is optimistic.
Then again, a little upthread there was a comment that plugging in and unplugging the Home EV charger is 15 seconds (IIRC).  That also seems optimistic.  

1961Nick said:

Of course that 25kWh can be added anywhere once the car has travelled around 120 miles which makes finding a convenient supercharger pretty easy.

Although, as far as I can understand the Tesla app, the route planner with the feature to schedule SC stops is not as flexible as that.  It only seems to offer one option for where to charge, which I think is partly linked to Tesla trying to balance demand at any time across the network to avoid waiting (which is a good thing) but it does mean less driver choice of where to stop.

Is there a way to set a route and have a choice of SC options presented?
It would be really good if you could put in your route and the options were presented:
 - SC stop 1, ETA 14:00, forecast no wait
 - SC stop 2, ETA 15:15, forecast busy
 - SC stop 3, ETA 15:45, forecast no wait
 - SC stop 4, ETA 16:45, forecast no wait
So, setting off at lunch time, I could select stop 3 for a mid-afternoon leg stretch and comfort break.
I only ever seem to get offered one option of SC and have always taken that.  (Coincidentally, they've always been convenient for desired rest breaks but that is likely more luck than judgement.)

You may consider it optimistic but that is how long it took - it wasn’t a guess, I timed it. I did point out that conditions were ideal (other than me forgetting to release the fuel filler flap as I got out.) There was no queue for the pump or to pay. My wife was stood by the till and as soon as I finished fuelling she was able to pay contactlessly. The kiosk was less than 20m from the car. I don’t understand why people find it so difficult to believe. It only takes a minute for the fuel to be delivered - yes I was surprised but check it out -pumps can do 30-40 litres per minute and I put in 27 litres. How long does it take to get out a car, walk round, remove the filler cap and pick up the pump? Please try and simulate it. 


I did also post that it took just over 4 minutes to fill my motorhome up with 75 litres of diesel including a brief delay while my wife had to wait for the person in front to pay.

I suspect people have got so used to reading or hearing that it takes 10 minutes or more (like in the video I attached) from the EV community that that now it is fact in many people’s eyes. 

Edit: I always stop filling when the pump clicks off, if that helps. Trickle filling until you see the fuel at the top of the neck might take twice as long but I don’t need to do that.

silvercar

Grumpy_chap said:

1961Nick said:

I think the Tesla algorithm is pretty good at figuring out the best stop for you & Tesla. However, there's nothing stopping you from selecting a supercharger from the list on the navigation & then navigating there instead of the stop Tesla have chosen. 

Thanks, but I don't think I've ever had a list on the navigation, only ever one option presented.
I have not found a way to force the system to allow a stop unless it thinks I need a stop.  This could be useful if, for example doing a journey and knowing I will need a charge on the return.  It may be preferable to force a charge on the way there and then do the return non-stop.

Set your destination as home with an intermediate stop at your intended true destination. It then calibrates the best SCs for the return journey.

Alternatively, you can set a super charger as a destination. Or just stop where you want.