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EV Discussion thread

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  • JKenH
    JKenH Posts: 5,117 Forumite
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    edited 7 February 2024 at 4:50PM

    Car buyers ‘reject’ electric in favour of petrol and hybrid


    JudgeService’s Car Buyer Barometer, which polled the views of 1,000 consumers, found over half expect their next car to be petrol (27%) or hybrid (27%), with 12% opting for fully electric.

    Diesel will account for 10% of purchases and plug-in hybrids (PHEVs) 7%. While 17% of buyers remain undecided about their next fuel choice.


    https://www.motortrader.com/motor-trader-news/automotive-news/car-buyers-reject-electric-favour-petrol-hybrid-07-02-2024


    Edit: the primary reason why people in this survey aren’t choosing EVs is the lack of adequate charging infrastructure (closely followed by the price of EVs). This is something I was particularly vocal about in thepast but the response of much of theEV community at that time was to reject criticism of the charging network and those who did complain about it (including newspapers like the Daily Mail were labelled as anti EV. 


    The attitude was then that nothing negative should be uttered about EVs. Yes it would be good to have more E  chargers but the charging network wasn’t a problem putting people off EVs. 


    As recently as July 2022, the lobby group, Transport and Environment were saying “contrary to much of the public commentary” the number of chargers were adequate to support the number of EVs on the road. 


    Currently there are 15 fully battery electric cars per public charger (rising to 27 EVs per charger if plug-in hybrid vehicles are included). Contrary to much of the public commentary about the EV charging network, this is currently more than sufficient to support the number of EVs on the road.


    Transport and Environment are supposed to be an important and influential lobby group promoting EVs. Why did they get it so wrong? Perhaps it would have been better to acknowledge that problems existed rather than take the line that any criticism of EVs or charging should be rejected/stamped out as it may put people off buying them. 

    Edit 2: organisations like ZapMap don’t help either with what I suspect might be misleading statistics or at best an overly rosy view of charging infrastructure. For instance in their review of caharging at the end of 2022 they said:


    Zap-Map’s data shows that across the year there were around 6% of chargers out of service at any point in time. But, when looking at chargers that have been installed since 2021, this figure fell to around 3%. This indicates that there are certainly issues with legacy chargers, but more recent installations are generally performing well.


    https://www.zap-map.com/news/ev-charging-2022-what-happened

    In their recent review of 2023 they say


    2023 also saw an improvement in the reliability of chargers across all power ratings. In the last six months of 2022, on average slow and fast devices were out of service 5.8%* of the time, with rapid and ultra-rapid at 10.6%.

    Slightly different statistics but difficult to reconcile with their view of the situation in 2022.


    https://www.zap-map.com/news/ev-charging-2024

    Yet a Which survey reported the following:


    Reliability of public charge points was also an issue. Three-quarters (73%) of survey respondents said they have experienced a faulty public charger at least once in the last 12 months, while nearly four in 10 (37%) rated it difficult to find a working charger at all. 


    https://fleetworld.co.uk/two-thirds-of-ev-drivers-unhappy-with-uk-public-charging-network-finds-which/

    It is hard to reconcile the real world experience of drivers with the wonderful picture of charging infrastructure provided by ZapMap. ZapMap relies on customer feedback to report out of service charging stations but reporting problems to ZapMap is not top of the list for a customer who arrives at a broken charger. Your car isn’t charging - do you sit there writing a review or move on to a charger that works? Its data is bound to be flawed but it’s not going to publish that. 


    Expectations have been raised unnecessarily high and it is no wonder that the press is full of reports of disillusioned EV drivers and that is turning people off buying EVs. It’s not that the press hate EVs, rather the EV industry has consistently oversold and underdelivered and any newspaper likes to uncover a story of disillusioned consumers. 

    Northern Lincolnshire. 7.8 kWp system, (4.2 kw west facing panels , 3.6 kw east facing), Solis inverters, Solar IBoost water heater, Mitsubishi SRK35ZS-S and SRK20ZS-S Wall Mounted Inverter Heat Pumps, ex Nissan Leaf owner)
  • michaels
    michaels Posts: 29,090 Forumite
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    I think it is the other way around. The objections with regard to cost and charging are not based on personal experience but on perceived wisdom that is driven by a narrative from several newspapers.

    It is by no means inconsistent for people not to want an EV based on perceptions of price and charging and also for price and charging not to be nearly as bad as the perception.
    I think....
  • JKenH
    JKenH Posts: 5,117 Forumite
    Sixth Anniversary 1,000 Posts Name Dropper
    michaels said:
    I think it is the other way around. The objections with regard to cost and charging are not based on personal experience but on perceived wisdom that is driven by a narrative from several newspapers.

    It is by no means inconsistent for people not to want an EV based on perceptions of price and charging and also for price and charging not to be nearly as bad as the perception.

    That though doesn’t explain the level of dissatisfaction encountered reported by Which? 

    Are you, perhaps, looking at it from a perspective of someone who is satisfied with EV ownership because it works for you and hence are dismissive of other’s experiences because they are not your own? You either have not had bad experiences of public charging, or you have, and have dismissed them as inconsequential because other things are more important to you. My experiences have been different - the issues were of consequence to me so I have a different perspective. 

    Or maybe you are dismissive of bad reports of public charging because as a matter of principle you want to see EVs replace ICE cars or your belief in them is such that you cannot understand why others choose not to buy one - it has to be a cinspiracy.

    It might not actually be a press conspiracy to stop EVs although there may be some people living in the EV bubble who actually believe it is. 
    Northern Lincolnshire. 7.8 kWp system, (4.2 kw west facing panels , 3.6 kw east facing), Solis inverters, Solar IBoost water heater, Mitsubishi SRK35ZS-S and SRK20ZS-S Wall Mounted Inverter Heat Pumps, ex Nissan Leaf owner)
  • JKenH
    JKenH Posts: 5,117 Forumite
    Sixth Anniversary 1,000 Posts Name Dropper
    I noted the following comment from @Zeupater on the G&E issues in the news thread.

    “Don't know about everyone else's thoughts on this, but I see a real difference between disruptive technologies where the people/market drives the change and politically enforced societal disruption which is effectively designed to choke off supply leaving demand to raise prices to a level which forces compliance with an agenda based more on heavily centralised supply, the related profits related to those few suppliers, and of course the level of centralised power of control which this brings ....”

    Leaving aside the centralised supply and where the profits go it sums up the transition to EVs (and in particular the net zero mandate introduced to kill off the ICE industry ) - politically enforced societal disruption which is effectively designed to choke off supply leaving demand to raise prices to a level which forces compliance… … effectively the outcome moves from one of 'disruptive technology' towards one that simply boils down to 'comply-or-die' .... 
    Northern Lincolnshire. 7.8 kWp system, (4.2 kw west facing panels , 3.6 kw east facing), Solis inverters, Solar IBoost water heater, Mitsubishi SRK35ZS-S and SRK20ZS-S Wall Mounted Inverter Heat Pumps, ex Nissan Leaf owner)
  • JKenH
    JKenH Posts: 5,117 Forumite
    Sixth Anniversary 1,000 Posts Name Dropper
    It seems that Mercedes has also been pulled up by the ASA, essentially for advertising a range based on 100% battery charge when Mercedes recommendation was to routinely charge to only 80% and also for quoting a charging time from 10 to 80% of  battery capacity alongside a range figure based on 100%. . 

    Northern Lincolnshire. 7.8 kWp system, (4.2 kw west facing panels , 3.6 kw east facing), Solis inverters, Solar IBoost water heater, Mitsubishi SRK35ZS-S and SRK20ZS-S Wall Mounted Inverter Heat Pumps, ex Nissan Leaf owner)
  • JKenH
    JKenH Posts: 5,117 Forumite
    Sixth Anniversary 1,000 Posts Name Dropper
    edited 7 February 2024 at 8:30PM
    Meanwhile ASA have also advised Kia that their ad for the e-Niro was misleading and must not appear again.

    Because the ads did not make clear that the quoted battery range figures were not necessarily representative of what a user would achieve, and the amended version of ad (b) did not make that information sufficiently prominent, we concluded that the claims “up to 285 mile range” in ad (a), and “Range of 285 miles” in ad (b) were likely to mislead.

    https://www.asa.org.uk/rulings/kia-uk-ltd-a23-1190884-kia-uk-ltd.html#:~:text=The%20ASA%20considered%20consumers%20would,a%20significant%20amount%20of%20cases.

    Could someone who bought an e-Niro, and found they were not achieving the advertised range, sue Kia, citing the ASA ruling as prima facie evidence of misrepresentation. Class actions to follow?

    The ASA also pulled up Toyota over rapid charging claims

    We concluded that because the ad omitted material information about the factors that could significantly affect the advertised charging time and the limitations in relation to the availability of 150 kW chargers in Northern Ireland and across the UK, the claim “use rapid public charging to reach 80% charge in around 30 minutes with a 150 kW fast-charging system” had not been substantiated and was misleading.

    Northern Lincolnshire. 7.8 kWp system, (4.2 kw west facing panels , 3.6 kw east facing), Solis inverters, Solar IBoost water heater, Mitsubishi SRK35ZS-S and SRK20ZS-S Wall Mounted Inverter Heat Pumps, ex Nissan Leaf owner)
  • JKenH said:
    I noted the following comment from @Zeupater on the G&E issues in the news thread.

    “Don't know about everyone else's thoughts on this, but I see a real difference between disruptive technologies where the people/market drives the change and politically enforced societal disruption which is effectively designed to choke off supply leaving demand to raise prices to a level which forces compliance with an agenda based more on heavily centralised supply, the related profits related to those few suppliers, and of course the level of centralised power of control which this brings ....”

    Leaving aside the centralised supply and where the profits go it sums up the transition to EVs (and in particular the net zero mandate introduced to kill off the ICE industry ) - politically enforced societal disruption which is effectively designed to choke off supply leaving demand to raise prices to a level which forces compliance… … effectively the outcome moves from one of 'disruptive technology' towards one that simply boils down to 'comply-or-die' .... 
    Centralised supply and profit concerns isn't really an argument again EVs. It's harder to have a *more* centralised market than the fossil fuel market dominated by a small number of supermajors, electricity markets aren't dominated in the same way.

    On the wider point... the issue with letting markets drive changes on their own is that markets is that markets are very bad at pricing in externalities - ie. the wider costs and respective benefits (be they environmental, economic, social etc...) that the buyer and seller themselves don't directly bear - that's when government & regulatory intervention becomes important to manage and control those harms, or encourage those benefits.




  • JKenH
    JKenH Posts: 5,117 Forumite
    Sixth Anniversary 1,000 Posts Name Dropper
    edited 7 February 2024 at 9:08PM
    JKenH said:
    I noted the following comment from @Zeupater on the G&E issues in the news thread.

    “Don't know about everyone else's thoughts on this, but I see a real difference between disruptive technologies where the people/market drives the change and politically enforced societal disruption which is effectively designed to choke off supply leaving demand to raise prices to a level which forces compliance with an agenda based more on heavily centralised supply, the related profits related to those few suppliers, and of course the level of centralised power of control which this brings ....”

    Leaving aside the centralised supply and where the profits go it sums up the transition to EVs (and in particular the net zero mandate introduced to kill off the ICE industry ) - politically enforced societal disruption which is effectively designed to choke off supply leaving demand to raise prices to a level which forces compliance… … effectively the outcome moves from one of 'disruptive technology' towards one that simply boils down to 'comply-or-die' .... 
    Centralised supply and profit concerns isn't really an argument again EVs. It's harder to have a *more* centralised market than the fossil fuel market dominated by a small number of supermajors, electricity markets aren't dominated in the same way.

    On the wider point... the issue with letting markets drive changes on their own is that markets is that markets are very bad at pricing in externalities - ie. the wider costs and respective benefits (be they environmental, economic, social etc...) that the buyer and seller themselves don't directly bear - that's when government & regulatory intervention becomes important to manage and control those harms, or encourage those benefits.




    I wasn’t really referring to the centralised nature of supply (note I said “ Leaving aside the centralised supply and where the profits go”).  You have, though (unintentionally?), raised an interesting point with the electricity market. Ofgem sets a price cap so in that respect it is perhaps centralised and the consumer feels this particularly when supply is short, e.g. during the fuel crisis or perhaps at a later date when the government decides it will levy higher rates of VAT on electric vehicle charging.  Also restricting the fuel used to one source only removes the competition between oil and electricity. Our electricity all flows through the national grid. Be under no illusion, it will be easier for any government to control electricity prices when it is the only fuel in town. And while we are on the subject of oil prices it is the likes of OPEC, not the oil majors that control electricity prices on the global market and in the UK retail prices are driven by supermarkets not the oil majors.(Edit: I can buy petrol 5p a litre cheaper at the Jet filling station in Messingham village, 134.9p  than at Morrisons or Tesco in Gainsborough which conveniently charge the same price 139.9.)

    That wasn’t my point though. What I was picking up on was the distinction @Zeupater identified between disruptive technologies where the people/market drive the change and politically enforced social disruption (whether or not it is warranted is a separate discussion and it may well be to reduce CO2 but let’s save that for later). The transition to EVs is not being driven by the people/market as previous technology disruptions have (horse to ICE, film to digital camera etc) but by the government enforcing the change by policy including imposing penalties on the manufacture of ICE cars of £15k (i.e. raising prices to a level which forces compliance).


    Northern Lincolnshire. 7.8 kWp system, (4.2 kw west facing panels , 3.6 kw east facing), Solis inverters, Solar IBoost water heater, Mitsubishi SRK35ZS-S and SRK20ZS-S Wall Mounted Inverter Heat Pumps, ex Nissan Leaf owner)
  • Spies
    Spies Posts: 2,267 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 1,000 Posts Photogenic Name Dropper
    Genuine question here, why are manufacturers still using NMC rather than LFP cells? I thought LFP was better even though they are a little less efficient because they can be routinely charged to 100% without issue?
    4.29kWp Solar system, 45/55 South/West split in cloudy rainy Cumbria. 
  • JKenH
    JKenH Posts: 5,117 Forumite
    Sixth Anniversary 1,000 Posts Name Dropper
    edited 7 February 2024 at 10:42PM
    It is somewhat ironic that a Guardian article is being blamed for slow electric car sales. I noted that Sky News used the term “damaging to the cause”. I wonder if this was intentional or just a Freudian slip.

    Mr Bean actor Rowan Atkinson blamed for slow electric car sales


    Thinktank Green Alliance gave its views on the main obstacles the government faces in its bid to phase out petrol and diesel cars before 2035, and said a comment piece by the Johnny English star published in June 2023 was damaging to the cause.

    The pressure group told peers in a letter that was shared: "One of the most damaging articles was a comment piece written by Rowan Atkinson in The Guardian which has been roundly debunked.

    https://news.sky.com/story/mr-bean-actor-rowan-atkinson-blamed-for-slow-electric-car-sales-13065947

    Edit: The Telegraph had this to say on the subject:


    The great electric car revolution is stalling, and the net-zero panjandrums are desperate to find somebody to blame. It must be the fault of fake news, they intimate, or disinformation campaigns, or of nit-picking journalists and their gullible readers, or because Elon Musk has embraced Right-wing ideas: what other possible reasons could there be for consumers refusing to do their duty?

    Electric vehicles’ (EVs) share of the UK market has remained stuck at 16 per cent for two years, and 10 out of 11 private buyers are still opting for combustion engines. But instead of seeking to understand the real reasons why even the environmentally conscious continue to patronise petrol-powered cars, green activists are resorting to deranged conspiracy theories. 



    Northern Lincolnshire. 7.8 kWp system, (4.2 kw west facing panels , 3.6 kw east facing), Solis inverters, Solar IBoost water heater, Mitsubishi SRK35ZS-S and SRK20ZS-S Wall Mounted Inverter Heat Pumps, ex Nissan Leaf owner)
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