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EV Discussion thread

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  • Netexporter
    Netexporter Posts: 1,930 Forumite
    1,000 Posts First Anniversary Name Dropper
    Spies said:
    Genuine question here, why are manufacturers still using NMC rather than LFP cells? I thought LFP was better even though they are a little less efficient because they can be routinely charged to 100% without issue?
    Higher energy density. They're generally used in the long-range variants of a particular model. The overall battery pack has to remain the same, as it essentially forms part of the chassis, so LFP modules are substituted with NMC modules.

    I suspect that will change in the relatively near future, if CATL's latest LFP battery, that is going into Teslas in the near future, lives up to its billing. Unaffected by low temperatures and charges at up to 500kW. It will obviate the need for very large capacity batteries as it won't take much longer to recharge than filling an ICE tank.
  • JKenH
    JKenH Posts: 5,117 Forumite
    Sixth Anniversary 1,000 Posts Name Dropper
    edited 8 February 2024 at 9:56AM
    Spies said:
    Genuine question here, why are manufacturers still using NMC rather than LFP cells? I thought LFP was better even though they are a little less efficient because they can be routinely charged to 100% without issue?
    Higher energy density. They're generally used in the long-range variants of a particular model. The overall battery pack has to remain the same, as it essentially forms part of the chassis, so LFP modules are substituted with NMC modules.

    I suspect that will change in the relatively near future, if CATL's latest LFP battery, that is going into Teslas in the near future, lives up to its billing. Unaffected by low temperatures and charges at up to 500kW. It will obviate the need for very large capacity batteries as it won't take much longer to recharge than filling an ICE tank.
    Let’s have a look at that claim. To add range as fast as a petrol car like my wife’s Picanto - 320 miles in 2 minutes - would, at a typical efficiency of 3.2mpg, need a 100kWh battery. To fill that in 2 minutes it would need to charge at 3MW from 0 to 100%. The Model 3 Highland has a maximum charge rate of 250MW so should in theory be able to fill its 75kWh battery in 18 minutes. Well, that’s the theory. 

    We know though, if only from the recent test Richard Symons did for his YouTube video, that EVs don’t charge at maximum speed over their whole capacity. It actually takes about an hour an 10 minutes to fully charge a model 3 Highland Long Range or about 4 times its maximum theoretical charging time. When this new battery comes along that can charge at 500kW that should drop the time down to about 35 minutes. Or even if we just look at the optimum charging window in practice where the M3LR manages to add 200miles in 20 minutes and assumed it could sustain that until it had added 320miles it would take 32 minutes rather than the hour and 10 minutes it actually takes. A 500MW charging rate might in theory, drop that down to 16 minutes (rather than 35 minutes it would really take) but that is still 8 times slower than my wife’s Picanto. 

    Edit: final paragraph removed as I am sure @Netexporter ‘s comments were well intentioned.
    Northern Lincolnshire. 7.8 kWp system, (4.2 kw west facing panels , 3.6 kw east facing), Solis inverters, Solar IBoost water heater, Mitsubishi SRK35ZS-S and SRK20ZS-S Wall Mounted Inverter Heat Pumps, ex Nissan Leaf owner)
  • Spies
    Spies Posts: 2,267 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 1,000 Posts Photogenic Name Dropper
    I think best case at the moment is around a 2.5c charge rate? 
    4.29kWp Solar system, 45/55 South/West split in cloudy rainy Cumbria. 
  • silvercar
    silvercar Posts: 49,503 Ambassador
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Academoney Grad Name Dropper
    JKenH said:
    Spies said:
    Genuine question here, why are manufacturers still using NMC rather than LFP cells? I thought LFP was better even though they are a little less efficient because they can be routinely charged to 100% without issue?
    Higher energy density. They're generally used in the long-range variants of a particular model. The overall battery pack has to remain the same, as it essentially forms part of the chassis, so LFP modules are substituted with NMC modules.

    I suspect that will change in the relatively near future, if CATL's latest LFP battery, that is going into Teslas in the near future, lives up to its billing. Unaffected by low temperatures and charges at up to 500kW. It will obviate the need for very large capacity batteries as it won't take much longer to recharge than filling an ICE tank.
    Let’s have a look at that claim. To add range as fast as a petrol car like my wife’s Picanto - 320 miles in 2 minutes - would, at a typical efficiency of 3.2mpg, need a 100kWh battery. To fill that in 2 minutes it would need to charge at 3MW from 0 to 100%. The Model 3 Highland has a maximum charge rate of 250MW so should in theory be able to fill its 75kWh battery in 18 minutes. Well, that’s the theory. 

    We know though, if only from the recent test Richard Symons did for his YouTube video, that EVs don’t charge at maximum speed over their whole capacity. It actually takes about an hour an 10 minutes to fully charge a model 3 Highland Long Range or about 4 times its maximum theoretical charging time. When this new battery comes along that can charge at 500kW that should drop the time down to about 35 minutes. Or even if we just look at the optimum charging window in practice where the M3LR manages to add 200miles in 20 minutes and assumed it could sustain that until it had added 320miles it would take 32 minutes rather than the hour and 10 minutes it actually takes. A 500MW charging rate might in theory, drop that down to 16 minutes (rather than 35 minutes it would really take) but that is still 8 times slower than my wife’s Picanto

    Edit: final paragraph removed as I am sure @Netexporter ‘s comments were well intentioned.
    You aren't comparing like for like. When you fill up a petrol/ diesel car you are holding the pump and standing by the car. 

    If you are charging an EV for 20 minutes, you don't stand by the car holding the cable, you use the time to do other tasks. 
    I'm a Forum Ambassador on the housing, mortgages & student money saving boards. I volunteer to help get your forum questions answered and keep the forum running smoothly. Forum Ambassadors are not moderators and don't read every post. If you spot an illegal or inappropriate post then please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com (it's not part of my role to deal with this). Any views are mine and not the official line of MoneySavingExpert.com.
  • JKenH
    JKenH Posts: 5,117 Forumite
    Sixth Anniversary 1,000 Posts Name Dropper
    silvercar said:
    JKenH said:
    Spies said:
    Genuine question here, why are manufacturers still using NMC rather than LFP cells? I thought LFP was better even though they are a little less efficient because they can be routinely charged to 100% without issue?
    Higher energy density. They're generally used in the long-range variants of a particular model. The overall battery pack has to remain the same, as it essentially forms part of the chassis, so LFP modules are substituted with NMC modules.

    I suspect that will change in the relatively near future, if CATL's latest LFP battery, that is going into Teslas in the near future, lives up to its billing. Unaffected by low temperatures and charges at up to 500kW. It will obviate the need for very large capacity batteries as it won't take much longer to recharge than filling an ICE tank.
    Let’s have a look at that claim. To add range as fast as a petrol car like my wife’s Picanto - 320 miles in 2 minutes - would, at a typical efficiency of 3.2mpg, need a 100kWh battery. To fill that in 2 minutes it would need to charge at 3MW from 0 to 100%. The Model 3 Highland has a maximum charge rate of 250MW so should in theory be able to fill its 75kWh battery in 18 minutes. Well, that’s the theory. 

    We know though, if only from the recent test Richard Symons did for his YouTube video, that EVs don’t charge at maximum speed over their whole capacity. It actually takes about an hour an 10 minutes to fully charge a model 3 Highland Long Range or about 4 times its maximum theoretical charging time. When this new battery comes along that can charge at 500kW that should drop the time down to about 35 minutes. Or even if we just look at the optimum charging window in practice where the M3LR manages to add 200miles in 20 minutes and assumed it could sustain that until it had added 320miles it would take 32 minutes rather than the hour and 10 minutes it actually takes. A 500MW charging rate might in theory, drop that down to 16 minutes (rather than 35 minutes it would really take) but that is still 8 times slower than my wife’s Picanto

    Edit: final paragraph removed as I am sure @Netexporter ‘s comments were well intentioned.
    You aren't comparing like for like. When you fill up a petrol/ diesel car you are holding the pump and standing by the car. 

    If you are charging an EV for 20 minutes, you don't stand by the car holding the cable, you use the time to do other tasks. 
    Sorry, but I am comparing like with like - how long it takes to fill your car up before you are on your way again, in answer to the claim from @Netexporter that when Tesla get the CATL battery capable of 500kW charging it won't take much longer to recharge than filling an ICE tank. What you might or might not do while charging your battery is completely irrelevant. 

    A modern petrol pump can dispense at  30-40l litres/minute and a high flow diesel pump at 120 litres/min. You are only actually holding the pump for around a minute while the petrol pump dispenses sufficient fuel for around 300 - 400+ miles of motoring. 

    The rest of the time is getting in and out of the car, opening the fuel flap, unscrewing the cap, inserting the nozzle, replacing it and the fuel cap, closing the fuel flap and getting back in the car - essentially similar to what you have to do in an EV. Yes, if you pay at pump it may take five seconds longer to key in your pin than a contactless charger but chargers (Tesla Superchargers excepted which I know are just plug in and go) are a lot more prone to being hesitant or downright refusing to start. You would, (well I would) just stand by the charger for a minute or so to make sure the charge had started. Chargers do have to do a handshake with the car and that can fail or sometimes a charge can start and then stop 30 seconds or a minute or so later. (I had that happen several times with different Swarco chargers.)  Not great if you already have headed off for your coffee. With the Leaf you could go through the whole charge starting procedure only to find that the charge timer was still on preventing a charge. It only took a few seconds to go back to the car and cancel it but if you don’t wait and check the charging lights are flashing you could come back from having your coffee and have to start all over again. And the of course there are the chargers that require you to start them with an app. Have you factored in the time that that takes, even if you already have the app on your phone? 

    You may be looking at this through the lens of a Tesla driver but, although Tesla’s seem to be everywhere, last year I think they only constituted around 16% of new EVs sold so the vast majority of EV drivers have to contend with the public charging network. 

    Perhaps, you may also be looking at it from the perspective of someone with a home charger who rarely needs to public charge. What if your usage pattern means you have to rely on public chargers? Are you always going to be able to charge at a time when you can usefully use the time it takes to fill up? And what if you use a public 7kW charger? It will take you longer to get your charging cable out and carefully coil it up again than you spend holding the petrol pump. Or you might not be able to find a charger immediately outside your house to fill up overnight for that long drive tomorrow so you have to factor in walking to and from wherever you park your car. 










    Northern Lincolnshire. 7.8 kWp system, (4.2 kw west facing panels , 3.6 kw east facing), Solis inverters, Solar IBoost water heater, Mitsubishi SRK35ZS-S and SRK20ZS-S Wall Mounted Inverter Heat Pumps, ex Nissan Leaf owner)
  • JKenH
    JKenH Posts: 5,117 Forumite
    Sixth Anniversary 1,000 Posts Name Dropper
    silvercar said:
    JKenH said:
    Spies said:
    Genuine question here, why are manufacturers still using NMC rather than LFP cells? I thought LFP was better even though they are a little less efficient because they can be routinely charged to 100% without issue?
    Higher energy density. They're generally used in the long-range variants of a particular model. The overall battery pack has to remain the same, as it essentially forms part of the chassis, so LFP modules are substituted with NMC modules.

    I suspect that will change in the relatively near future, if CATL's latest LFP battery, that is going into Teslas in the near future, lives up to its billing. Unaffected by low temperatures and charges at up to 500kW. It will obviate the need for very large capacity batteries as it won't take much longer to recharge than filling an ICE tank.
    Let’s have a look at that claim. To add range as fast as a petrol car like my wife’s Picanto - 320 miles in 2 minutes - would, at a typical efficiency of 3.2mpg, need a 100kWh battery. To fill that in 2 minutes it would need to charge at 3MW from 0 to 100%. The Model 3 Highland has a maximum charge rate of 250MW so should in theory be able to fill its 75kWh battery in 18 minutes. Well, that’s the theory. 

    We know though, if only from the recent test Richard Symons did for his YouTube video, that EVs don’t charge at maximum speed over their whole capacity. It actually takes about an hour an 10 minutes to fully charge a model 3 Highland Long Range or about 4 times its maximum theoretical charging time. When this new battery comes along that can charge at 500kW that should drop the time down to about 35 minutes. Or even if we just look at the optimum charging window in practice where the M3LR manages to add 200miles in 20 minutes and assumed it could sustain that until it had added 320miles it would take 32 minutes rather than the hour and 10 minutes it actually takes. A 500MW charging rate might in theory, drop that down to 16 minutes (rather than 35 minutes it would really take) but that is still 8 times slower than my wife’s Picanto

    Edit: final paragraph removed as I am sure @Netexporter ‘s comments were well intentioned.
    You aren't comparing like for like. When you fill up a petrol/ diesel car you are holding the pump and standing by the car

    If you are charging an EV for 20 minutes, you don't stand by the car holding the cable, you use the time to do other tasks. 
    Under cover, unlike EV chargers (Gridserve hubs excepted) where you might be standing in the rain and snow while you wrestle the heavy charging lead into the socket on your car without he getting your clothes wet or dirty.  That includes at home unless you are fortunate enough (like me😏) to have the charger inside the garage. 

    Hopefully you won’t be faced with this today


    Northern Lincolnshire. 7.8 kWp system, (4.2 kw west facing panels , 3.6 kw east facing), Solis inverters, Solar IBoost water heater, Mitsubishi SRK35ZS-S and SRK20ZS-S Wall Mounted Inverter Heat Pumps, ex Nissan Leaf owner)
  • Netexporter
    Netexporter Posts: 1,930 Forumite
    1,000 Posts First Anniversary Name Dropper
    Enjoy breathing you carcinogenic benzene fumes.
  • MeteredOut
    MeteredOut Posts: 3,027 Forumite
    1,000 Posts Second Anniversary Name Dropper
    edited 8 February 2024 at 1:22PM
    I wonder what percentage of EV car charges are done at home versus out on the road. Anyone got any figures?

    I suspect the percentage of ICE fuelling at home is lower.

    I wonder if, on average over the lifetime of ownership of a car, EV owners spend less cumulative time waiting for a charge to take place (including on-the-road charging wait times, but excluding at-home charge times) compared to the time ICE drivers spend filling and paying for their fuel.

    @JKenH, feel free to ignore if too personal, but do you have a another job alongside your full time job of trawling the internet for articles that might have a slight negative vibe towards EVs so you can post them here?

    ;)
  • JKenH
    JKenH Posts: 5,117 Forumite
    Sixth Anniversary 1,000 Posts Name Dropper
    edited 8 February 2024 at 3:30PM
    I wonder what percentage of EV car charges are done at home versus out on the road. Anyone got any figures?

    I suspect the percentage of ICE fuelling at home is lower.

    I wonder if, on average over the lifetime of ownership of a car, EV owners spend less cumulative time waiting for a charge to take place (including on-the-road charging wait times, but excluding at-home charge times) compared to the time ICE drivers spend filling and paying for their fuel.

    @JKenH, feel free to ignore if too personal, but do you have a another job alongside your full time job of trawling the internet for articles that might have a slight negative vibe towards EVs so you can post them here?

    ;)
    Ignoring home charging (as you suggest)* I imagine most people on this forum will spend less time at public chargers than I do filling my car up, paying etc. We do around 3000 miles in the Picanto, so about 10 fill ups a year as we run it quite low and 6000 miles in the  Golf (including my daughter’s usage) so maybe 12 - 15 fill ups. Let’s say 25 fill ups a year so around an hour a year. I usually fill up on a regular shopping day, either at the supermarket or more recently it has been at the independent which is 0.5 mile off route when going to Asda or Tesco but on route to Morrisons. 

    My motorhome gets filled up around 5 or 6 times a year and this week I put 75 litres in it. Total time, including paying, was just over 4 minutes as my wife had to queue to pay (over £100). Normally I fill up on route on holiday or at a supermarket near my destination when topping up with food. This week I was using it to deliver a bed and as I had less than 100 miles range we popped into Tesco when passing. 

    Erring on the side of caution I would say 1h 30m spent filling up for around 12,000 miles motoring in total. 

    I would imagine that 1h 30m equates to 3 or 4 rapid charges so if you public charge less than 3 or 4 times a year you’ll spend less time waiting to charge than we, as a family, spend filling up. I would add a couple of caveats. I have heard some users say they avoid the more expensive chargers at motorway services and seek out alternatives close to their route. These detours of course take time and perhaps should be factored in. If you are seeking out Tesla chargers only then unless there are Superchargers on your route you may have to take a detour or make less than optimum stops and that should perhaps be factored in. Do you also factor in time taken looking for chargers - the all important planning that I was told I hadn’t done.

    In the last year of owning my Leaf IIRC I had visited around 20 chargers. I remember on at least two occasions taking more than an hour to get a charge due to chargers not working properly and queuing so it wouldn’t surprise me if my hours wasted on public charging experiences ran into double figures.

    *I’m not sure we should completely ignore home charging but I won’t argue my case here.

    I will answer the question posed in your last paragraph in a separate post. 

    Edit: here is an extract from  a post I made in 2022 about the wasted time on a single trip

    According to Google Maps my whole journey (without stops) was supposed to take around 2h10m. (Currently it is showing as 2h13m and on Saturday it was 2h7m). My journey yesterday took 3h30m, 1h20m longer than Google estimates were I doing it in an ICE car, yet I only actually spent 50 minutes charging and I completed the drive home from charging at Huntingdon faster than estimated. The other 40 minutes plus were wasted going off route twice to charging stations, checking the status of chargers, planning an additional stop and driving at 50mph to make sure I reached the charger. That doesn’t even take into account the abortive stop on Saturday.


    If you follow the thread a little further you will see posts suggesting I should have taken an alternative route where chargers were located in small rural towns. I compared the routes on Google and it would have taken quite a bit longer. 
    Northern Lincolnshire. 7.8 kWp system, (4.2 kw west facing panels , 3.6 kw east facing), Solis inverters, Solar IBoost water heater, Mitsubishi SRK35ZS-S and SRK20ZS-S Wall Mounted Inverter Heat Pumps, ex Nissan Leaf owner)
  • JKenH
    JKenH Posts: 5,117 Forumite
    Sixth Anniversary 1,000 Posts Name Dropper
    I wonder what percentage of EV car charges are done at home versus out on the road. Anyone got any figures?

    I suspect the percentage of ICE fuelling at home is lower.

    I wonder if, on average over the lifetime of ownership of a car, EV owners spend less cumulative time waiting for a charge to take place (including on-the-road charging wait times, but excluding at-home charge times) compared to the time ICE drivers spend filling and paying for their fuel.

    @JKenH, feel free to ignore if too personal, but do you have a another job alongside your full time job of trawling the internet for articles that might have a slight negative vibe towards EVs so you can post them here?

    ;)
    No I don’t have another job - I am retired so I do have more time than those in full time employment. 

    Yes, my posts do exhibit a negative bias but they are not all negative. If you visit the first post on this thread, you will observe that the thread was started as a counterpoint to the BEV News thread as Mart had said he didn’t want to see discussion on his thread and tongue in cheek he renamed it (temporarily) the Cheerleading thread. It was suggested if we wanted to make negative arguments we start a separate thread which is exactly what I did. If I have something positive to post I will usually post it on the BEV news thread unless I think it is going to start a discussion.

    You have picked up on the negative bias in my posts but not on the positive bias of other contributors posts, particularly on the BEV News thread. The whole purpose of this thread is that we can discuss news of BEVs and aspects of BEV ownership both good and bad. Some people would prefer that negative stories are ignored and that there should be no negative EV comments on this thread either. I am more than happy to see positive EV posts but if a post is obviously biased then should an alternative point of view also be aired just as my “negative” posts are debated. 


    Northern Lincolnshire. 7.8 kWp system, (4.2 kw west facing panels , 3.6 kw east facing), Solis inverters, Solar IBoost water heater, Mitsubishi SRK35ZS-S and SRK20ZS-S Wall Mounted Inverter Heat Pumps, ex Nissan Leaf owner)
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