Battery Electric Vehicle News / Enjoying the Transportation Revolution

JKenH

shinytop said:

Martyn1981 said:

Here's an odd one. Article referenced in a Youtube vid of EV news, that made me go look for it. It seems that Hyundai / Kia is to invest almost twice as much money in ICE development and production facilities, as it's putting into EV's despite recent news about them cutting ICE investment.

I have to assume that there's more to the story, as investing ~$42bn in 'expanding' ICE facilities seems somewhat odd.

Hyundai to invest almost $70 billion in South Korea

Hyundai Motor Group has revealed plans to invest 63 trillion won, or $AU69.6 billion, in South Korea over the next three years, with a specific focus on growing its electric car production capabilities.

As part of the investment, the group will commit 21 trillion won ($AU23.2 billion) to the expansion of its electric car production operations in South Korea, with the goal of building 1.44 million EVs a year in the country by 2030.

If achieved, this would account for 45 per cent of the group's electric car production globally.

However, the automaker will also maintain its investment in the development of internal combustion-engined (ICE) cars, with 38 trillion won committed to the expansion of ICE production facilities in South Korea, according to The Korea Herald.

That's despite overseas reports suggesting Hyundai and Kia have paused the development of new petrol and diesel engines, in favour of electric drivetrains.

Why?  It's going to be a long time before a lot of the world has the infrastructure for, or can afford, the current EV offerings.  They are going to want new, efficient ICE cars in the meantime and someone is going to have to supply them.  And it makes sense to make these ICE cars as efficient and as efficiently, as possible.  Or is everyone going to have to drive old ICE rust-buckets and/or 50 mile range Leafs nobody else wants until 2040 (or whenever) ?

 

I agree. I drove from north west Lincolnshire to Cambridge at the weekend for a reunion with university friends. One of them who has solar panels and a Prius was particularly keen for me to share my experiences of EVs as he was considering the switch. 

Having looked at charging stations around Cambridge I did seriously consider taking the Picanto (as among other things I was expecting a wet journey) and it was only on Saturday morning I decided I really should take the Leaf in principle.

I had to pick the Prius owner and  another friend up from Cambridge station on the way to the hotel and planned a charging stop at Cambridge services on the way. Unfortunately upon arrival the single Chademo charger there was not available as there was someone already using the CCS connector. I had ruled out the only other Chademo charger in Cambridge as it was on the far side of the town and it would have taken me too long to get there, get a charge (if it was free) and be in time for the station pick up. Not too much of a problem, I thought, as I had 20 odd % of my battery remaining and I decided I would just get a charge on the way home but unless I had a very long charging session I would need to stop again.  (The Leaf slows charging down significantly after 60% and is down to below 20kw at 90% which is the minimum I would need to get home).

Before leaving my hotel I checked that the Chademo station was free at Cambridge services and set off there. When I arrived both parking bays for that charging point were occupied with both cars plugged in. The car on the CCS plug was at 55% and I could see from Zap-Map that the Leaf had been plugged in for 4 minutes on the Chademo and so was waiting to charge. Neither car was occupied so I couldn’t ascertain how long they might be there. Had it just been the car charging on CCS and the adjacent bay empty I would have waited but as it was I could potentially have had to wait an hour to get on the Chademo. 

The next, and most convenient, charger was BP Pulse in Huntingdon, 12 miles away and I had 12% battery remaining. Zap-Map was showing there were 2 Chademo connectors both free so I set off there driving very conservatively and then, nearly there, missed the turning off the roundabout which was marked ‘hotel and racecourse only’ thinking it must be the next exit for the charger which was still half a mile distant. I found myself on a slip road down to a dual carriageway. Fortunately the slip road wasn’t too busy and I pulled up. I couldn’t see how far it would be before the next junction where I could turn round and with no range showing and battery at 5% I made the decision to reverse back up the slip road rather than run out of battery. (Yes, it was wrong and, yes, perhaps I panicked but faced with the prospect of being stranded with a flat battery I would do it again). Despite three or four cars blowing their horns at me (even when I was stationary) I made it safely to the BP Pulse chargers which were at the hotel and fortunately they were free and working. I spent 50 minutes charging to 87% which was enough to get me home without stopping again. 

I have had a look on Zap-Map today, and invite anyone else to do the same and correct me, but the charging situation in Cambridge itself is very poor, particularly if you need to rapid charge a Leaf.

The point of this story is that people are right to be concerned about the state of charging in the UK and as long as this persists those likely to still be considering buying ICE cars for some time yet. I consider myself to be an experienced EV driver (and public charger user) and almost every long journey I do that needs a charging stop(s) I encounter some issue. I love driving my Leaf and provided I am staying within its range can’t honestly think of a better car (for the money) either ICE, PHEV or EV. Those times I have to travel outside its range, however, I am faced with foreboding every journey. That, even before yesterday’s experience, I  considered taking an 11 year old Picanto for my Cambridge trip when I have a very comfortable 2 year old car,  perhaps says a lot about EVs. After yesterday next time I won’t just be considering it, I will be taking it. And that is me travelling on my own. Imagine someone with a young family, an elderly relative, or someone with special needs all of which want to see the journey completed in the shortest time possible. 

I recounted my experience to my son today. He told me yesterday that he took his young family for a day out in his diesel Astra rather than his Leaf. He worked out that his round trip was going to be within the range of the Leaf but there was no ‘headroom’. If he got diverted the range might be marginal and if there was a change of plan as can happen as the day develops he would be limited in choice of alternative destinations. He is an EV enthusiast but he is pragmatic. 

According to Google Maps my whole journey (without stops) was supposed to take around 2h10m. (Currently it is showing as 2h13m and on Saturday it was 2h7m). My journey yesterday took 3h30m, 1h20m longer than Google estimates were I doing it in an ICE car, yet I only actually spent 50 minutes charging and I completed the drive home from charging at Huntingdon faster than estimated. The other 40 minutes plus were wasted going off route twice to charging stations, checking the status of chargers, planning an additional stop and driving at 50mph to make sure I reached the charger. That doesn’t even take into account the abortive stop on Saturday.

I am not the only one having these experiences and recounting them to others.The more EVs hit the road the more commonplace these experiences which tend to be shared with others become. It does not surprise me that there is still a deep grained suspicion of EVs among the general public. One of the 3 friends I met up with wants to move to an EV for environmental reasons the other 2 don’t for practical reasons. They may be my age but they are not knuckle dragging boneheads. One is a non exec director of an AIM listed start up tech company. Beyond the cost savings which they can see, they just see the impracticality and inconvenience of EVs for their lifestyle.

I am increasingly coming returning to the conclusion I reached 3-4 years ago that EVs make exceedingly good choices for two car households where the alternative vehicle is ICE but as sole transport for a family they are not first choice. As long as the tax advantages (both in terms of income tax savings and lack of tax on fuel) of EVs are in place they will be an attractive choice for a significant proportion of car users but without those incentives and for those for whom those incentives are not significant it may be a while before they become a popular choice on their own merits. There will always be those around like me for whom the pleasure of driving or other emotional issues influence choice but for the vast majority of the population a car has to meet the practical needs of the buyer and there is still a long way to go there; not because of EVs themselves but because of the charging network. For those who say it is improving all the time, I would say that in my personal experience charging has if anything become more problematic. I think the fact that EV owners virtually always trade up to new EVs with longer ranges suggests that they silently agree. 

I suspect that Hyundai/Kia have worked out ICE vehicles are going to be around for a lot longer than governments in Europe are suggesting. Perhaps governments in the face of popular opinion will extend the deadline as they keep doing with FM radio in the UK.

JKenH

Driverless Ocado in 2023

Oxbotica and AppliedEV have succeeded in unleashing a driverless autonomous vehicle on “publicly accessible roads” in Oxford. Called the Oxbotica Driver, the autonomous EV can be adapted for various tasks and a delivery vehicle based on it will go into service with Ocado Group from 2023 onwards. The unmanned vehicle uses a mix of radar and laser-based sensors to get around and can achieve 10mpkWh.

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/technology/under-skin-how-tell-when-battery-has-been-damaged

JKenH

‘Charging anxiety’ has replaced ‘range anxiety’ for EV drivers, as new report says charge-point reliability is key

In terms of there still being issues with the UK’s charging infrastructure, the report says it’s not the number of public chargers that is the concern – it is the accessibility, reliability and geography of chargepoints that require attention and investment from both the automotive industry and the Government.

We seem to be obsessed with the provision of chargers near to people’s homes when in fact it is when you are away from home you need public chargers. As the majority of people who own an EV also have the opportunity to charge at home it is nonsensical that there should be so many public chargers in London and the south east. We need them on the motorway network and major roads. 

https://forecourttrader.co.uk/latest-news/charging-anxiety-has-replaced-range-anxiety-for-ev-drivers-as-new-report-says-charge-point-reliability-is-key/668644.article

JKenH

Hydrogen vehicles to exceed one million globally by 2027, and are necessary EV alternative, says new study

Don’t shoot the messenger.

https://forecourttrader.co.uk/latest-news/hydrogen-vehicles-to-exceed-one-million-globally-by-2027-and-are-necessary-ev-alternative-says-new-study/668631.article

JKenH

EV sales in the UK predicted to see 300% growth by 2030

https://airqualitynews.com/2022/06/20/ev-sales-in-the-uk-predicted-to-see-300-growth-by-2030/

shinytop

You either manage the run down of ICE production in a controlled way or you just stop making them and see what happens.  Which do you think will lead to the lowest emissions? 

I was in Greece a couple of weeks ago driving an 18 year old Ford Fiesta that had done 239000km.  It belongs to my extended family and is not an unusual sight there.  It uses quite a lot of oil and seems to get through petrol quite fast too.  It has a few bumps and rattles but otherwise works fine.  The engine warning light is on but that's probably its emission control system gone wrong. That's what people are going to be driving in 2040 and beyond if the likes of Hyundia stop producing ICE cars.

And EV makers will have to stop producing huge SUVs and other high performance cars that people can't afford.

1961Nick

JKenH said:

EV sales in the UK predicted to see 300% growth by 2030

https://airqualitynews.com/2022/06/20/ev-sales-in-the-uk-predicted-to-see-300-growth-by-2030/

600,000 BEVs on UK roads by 2030 ... 40,000 were registered in March alone & there are already about 450,000 on the road now! The 600,000 in the Uk should be attained late this year or early 2023.

JKenH

1961Nick said:

JKenH said:

EV sales in the UK predicted to see 300% growth by 2030

https://airqualitynews.com/2022/06/20/ev-sales-in-the-uk-predicted-to-see-300-growth-by-2030/

600,000 BEVs on UK roads by 2030 ... 40,000 were registered in March alone & there are already about 450,000 on the road now! The 600,000 in the Uk should be attained late this year or early 2023.

 Just shows you can’t believe everything you see in the media.

michaels

JKenH said:

shinytop said:

Martyn1981 said:

Here's an odd one. Article referenced in a Youtube vid of EV news, that made me go look for it. It seems that Hyundai / Kia is to invest almost twice as much money in ICE development and production facilities, as it's putting into EV's despite recent news about them cutting ICE investment.

I have to assume that there's more to the story, as investing ~$42bn in 'expanding' ICE facilities seems somewhat odd.

Hyundai to invest almost $70 billion in South Korea

Hyundai Motor Group has revealed plans to invest 63 trillion won, or $AU69.6 billion, in South Korea over the next three years, with a specific focus on growing its electric car production capabilities.

As part of the investment, the group will commit 21 trillion won ($AU23.2 billion) to the expansion of its electric car production operations in South Korea, with the goal of building 1.44 million EVs a year in the country by 2030.

If achieved, this would account for 45 per cent of the group's electric car production globally.

However, the automaker will also maintain its investment in the development of internal combustion-engined (ICE) cars, with 38 trillion won committed to the expansion of ICE production facilities in South Korea, according to The Korea Herald.

That's despite overseas reports suggesting Hyundai and Kia have paused the development of new petrol and diesel engines, in favour of electric drivetrains.

Why?  It's going to be a long time before a lot of the world has the infrastructure for, or can afford, the current EV offerings.  They are going to want new, efficient ICE cars in the meantime and someone is going to have to supply them.  And it makes sense to make these ICE cars as efficient and as efficiently, as possible.  Or is everyone going to have to drive old ICE rust-buckets and/or 50 mile range Leafs nobody else wants until 2040 (or whenever) ?

 

I agree. I drove from north west Lincolnshire to Cambridge at the weekend for a reunion with university friends. One of them who has solar panels and a Prius was particularly keen for me to share my experiences of EVs as he was considering the switch. 

Having looked at charging stations around Cambridge I did seriously consider taking the Picanto (as among other things I was expecting a wet journey) and it was only on Saturday morning I decided I really should take the Leaf in principle.

I had to pick the Prius owner and  another friend up from Cambridge station on the way to the hotel and planned a charging stop at Cambridge services on the way. Unfortunately upon arrival the single Chademo charger there was not available as there was someone already using the CCS connector. I had ruled out the only other Chademo charger in Cambridge as it was on the far side of the town and it would have taken me too long to get there, get a charge (if it was free) and be in time for the station pick up. Not too much of a problem, I thought, as I had 20 odd % of my battery remaining and I decided I would just get a charge on the way home but unless I had a very long charging session I would need to stop again.  (The Leaf slows charging down significantly after 60% and is down to below 20kw at 90% which is the minimum I would need to get home).

Before leaving my hotel I checked that the Chademo station was free at Cambridge services and set off there. When I arrived both parking bays for that charging point were occupied with both cars plugged in. The car on the CCS plug was at 55% and I could see from Zap-Map that the Leaf had been plugged in for 4 minutes on the Chademo and so was waiting to charge. Neither car was occupied so I couldn’t ascertain how long they might be there. Had it just been the car charging on CCS and the adjacent bay empty I would have waited but as it was I could potentially have had to wait an hour to get on the Chademo. 

The next, and most convenient, charger was BP Pulse in Huntingdon, 12 miles away and I had 12% battery remaining. Zap-Map was showing there were 2 Chademo connectors both free so I set off there driving very conservatively and then, nearly there, missed the turning off the roundabout which was marked ‘hotel and racecourse only’ thinking it must be the next exit for the charger which was still half a mile distant. I found myself on a slip road down to a dual carriageway. Fortunately the slip road wasn’t too busy and I pulled up. I couldn’t see how far it would be before the next junction where I could turn round and with no range showing and battery at 5% I made the decision to reverse back up the slip road rather than run out of battery. (Yes, it was wrong and, yes, perhaps I panicked but faced with the prospect of being stranded with a flat battery I would do it again). Despite three or four cars blowing their horns at me (even when I was stationary) I made it safely to the BP Pulse chargers which were at the hotel and fortunately they were free and working. I spent 50 minutes charging to 87% which was enough to get me home without stopping again. 

I have had a look on Zap-Map today, and invite anyone else to do the same and correct me, but the charging situation in Cambridge itself is very poor, particularly if you need to rapid charge a Leaf.

The point of this story is that people are right to be concerned about the state of charging in the UK and as long as this persists those likely to still be considering buying ICE cars for some time yet. I consider myself to be an experienced EV driver (and public charger user) and almost every long journey I do that needs a charging stop(s) I encounter some issue. I love driving my Leaf and provided I am staying within its range can’t honestly think of a better car (for the money) either ICE, PHEV or EV. Those times I have to travel outside its range, however, I am faced with foreboding every journey. That, even before yesterday’s experience, I  considered taking an 11 year old Picanto for my Cambridge trip when I have a very comfortable 2 year old car,  perhaps says a lot about EVs. After yesterday next time I won’t just be considering it, I will be taking it. And that is me travelling on my own. Imagine someone with a young family, an elderly relative, or someone with special needs all of which want to see the journey completed in the shortest time possible. 

I recounted my experience to my son today. He told me yesterday that he took his young family for a day out in his diesel Astra rather than his Leaf. He worked out that his round trip was going to be within the range of the Leaf but there was no ‘headroom’. If he got diverted the range might be marginal and if there was a change of plan as can happen as the day develops he would be limited in choice of alternative destinations. He is an EV enthusiast but he is pragmatic. 

According to Google Maps my whole journey (without stops) was supposed to take around 2h10m. (Currently it is showing as 2h13m and on Saturday it was 2h7m). My journey yesterday took 3h30m, 1h20m longer than Google estimates were I doing it in an ICE car, yet I only actually spent 50 minutes charging and I completed the drive home from charging at Huntingdon faster than estimated. The other 40 minutes plus were wasted going off route twice to charging stations, checking the status of chargers, planning an additional stop and driving at 50mph to make sure I reached the charger. That doesn’t even take into account the abortive stop on Saturday.

I am not the only one having these experiences and recounting them to others.The more EVs hit the road the more commonplace these experiences which tend to be shared with others become. It does not surprise me that there is still a deep grained suspicion of EVs among the general public. One of the 3 friends I met up with wants to move to an EV for environmental reasons the other 2 don’t for practical reasons. They may be my age but they are not knuckle dragging boneheads. One is a non exec director of an AIM listed start up tech company. Beyond the cost savings which they can see, they just see the impracticality and inconvenience of EVs for their lifestyle.

I am increasingly coming returning to the conclusion I reached 3-4 years ago that EVs make exceedingly good choices for two car households where the alternative vehicle is ICE but as sole transport for a family they are not first choice. As long as the tax advantages (both in terms of income tax savings and lack of tax on fuel) of EVs are in place they will be an attractive choice for a significant proportion of car users but without those incentives and for those for whom those incentives are not significant it may be a while before they become a popular choice on their own merits. There will always be those around like me for whom the pleasure of driving or other emotional issues influence choice but for the vast majority of the population a car has to meet the practical needs of the buyer and there is still a long way to go there; not because of EVs themselves but because of the charging network. For those who say it is improving all the time, I would say that in my personal experience charging has if anything become more problematic. I think the fact that EV owners virtually always trade up to new EVs with longer ranges suggests that they silently agree. 

I suspect that Hyundai/Kia have worked out ICE vehicles are going to be around for a lot longer than governments in Europe are suggesting. Perhaps governments in the face of popular opinion will extend the deadline as they keep doing with FM radio in the UK.

Normally if I can avoid public charging by driving conservatively I will but I had a round trip to NW London on Saturday and didn't bother to see if I could just make it as the guessometer on the leaf was suggesting as there seemed to be at least a dozen chargers on my route with no detour.  IN the end we stopped at the 4th one of the 12, got straight on the electricity at Ikea and by the time we had bought frozen meatballs (and no we didn't trail and the store first) - a whole 10 minutes we had added twice what we needed to complete the trip.  We would have got home with minus 4% without the stop but could easily have hypermiled had we needed to and probably would have taken less total time than the 10 minute stop.

Only time I went to Cambridge I charged for free at the Nissan dealers although agree they are the wrong side of town.

CKhalvashi

Mom (who works in Cambridge but only has a few years to go until retirement) is actually looking at EVs at the moment due to inheritance (so mortgage almost paid and new car time for her).

The Corsa fits her needs well, although she's questioning whether it's really viable to spend 25 minutes of 30 minute lunch break going to/from the on-site car park to move her car charging-wise.

Replacement is a petrol Spark, so 'something a bit bigger' is needed, but not too big. The Chevy has served well for 6 years.