EV Discussion thread

MeteredOut

Grumpy_chap said:

MeteredOut said:

It's nearer 10 seconds for me. 

Plugging in: get out car, open charging port cover, pick up charger, plug in charger, reach inside car and turn charging off (this last step is only so that Octopus IO will then schedule the charge, rather than the charge starting immediately). Lock the car and walk away.

Unplugging: Unlock car, pull out charging cable, close charging port cover, place charging cable down, get in car.

It would obviously be more work for those with untethered chargers.

Solarchaser said:

I would say on this, if you delete the time that a person would take to walk past the car... as you have to anyway, to walk to house door mine takes 5-10 seconds.
Reverse car into drive, get out and slap charging port, grab cable as port opens and shove cable in.
Walk away.

If its the wifes leaf it's more like 30 seconds as you need to drag the lead to the front of the car for charging port and then walk back to the house

Am I to conclude that there are EV operators that simply drop the cable where it lands and leave it trailing in a messy and unsafe fashion?
I could never do that and always uncoil / coil the cable back to the wall socket.  Leaving it any other way is simply an accident waiting to happen plus it will bring the whole neighbourhood down.  Like having an ICE and leaving empty oil cans strewn over the front yard

You may well conclude that, but you'd be wrong in my case. I use a 3 pin charger, not a heavy cable, and simply coil it up an hang it over a couple of hanging hooks on the wall, and uncoil it again to charge. Not messy. Not unsafe.

Solarchaser

Grumpy_chap said:

MeteredOut said:

It's nearer 10 seconds for me. 

Plugging in: get out car, open charging port cover, pick up charger, plug in charger, reach inside car and turn charging off (this last step is only so that Octopus IO will then schedule the charge, rather than the charge starting immediately). Lock the car and walk away.

Unplugging: Unlock car, pull out charging cable, close charging port cover, place charging cable down, get in car.

It would obviously be more work for those with untethered chargers.

Solarchaser said:

I would say on this, if you delete the time that a person would take to walk past the car... as you have to anyway, to walk to house door mine takes 5-10 seconds.
Reverse car into drive, get out and slap charging port, grab cable as port opens and shove cable in.
Walk away.

If its the wifes leaf it's more like 30 seconds as you need to drag the lead to the front of the car for charging port and then walk back to the house

Am I to conclude that there are EV operators that simply drop the cable where it lands and leave it trailing in a messy and unsafe fashion?
I could never do that and always uncoil / coil the cable back to the wall socket.  Leaving it any other way is simply an accident waiting to happen plus it will bring the whole neighbourhood down.  Like having an ICE and leaving empty oil cans strewn over the front yard

Guilty.
Well mine is in a carport at the end of the drive, so it's left in a curl on the ground,  but nobody would see it as its behind the butt of the carport.
Only time I coil it up is if I need it in the car, rest of the time it just hangs out of the charger.
I'm sure I'm the talk of the steamy 🤪

JKenH

As Mark Twain famously said “The reports of my death are greatly exaggerated.”

With the Tesla Model Y being crowned the title of the World’s Best Selling Car from Toyota this year many pundits had written Toyota off. Prematurely it would seem. Toyota seem to have got their strategy just right. They are learning how to make EVs while continuing to finance their research and development with cars that actually sell at a profit. For the year to the end of March Toyota are forecasting profits of £24bn.

Toyota remains the biggest car company after 2023 record sales

We've been waiting for Toyota to release sales data for 2023 ever since the Volkswagen Group announced it sold 9.24 million cars. The numbers are in, and as expected, the Japanese juggernaut has managed to comfortably beat its German rival. With a record-breaking 11,233,039 vehicles shipped last year, an increase of 7.2 per cent year-over-year, Toyota is the best-selling automaker for the fourth year in a row.

https://uk.motor1.com/news/706623/toyota-best-selling-automaker-record-sales-2023/

How Toyota swerved the great electric car slowdown

Carmaker is blazing its own trail as rivals caught out by electric car slowdown

The chairman of the world’s biggest car maker described how he had been “beaten up” by critics for refusing to bet all his company’s chips on electric vehicles (EVs).

Instead, he has doggedly championed a so-called multi-pathway approach that spans EVs, hybrids and even hydrogen-powered cars.

The decision has infuriated climate activists who once praised Toyota for its eco-friendly Prius hatchback, while even industry insiders have wondered whether the company is making a strategic blunder.

“It’s really hard to fight alone,” Toyoda said to staff, according to a translation of his January remarks.

The total included a combined 3.5 million hybrids and plug-in hybrids – a year-on-year increase of 32pc – but only 104,000 EVs.

Yoichi Miyazaki, executive vice president at Toyota, said hybrids were even selling strongly in China – the world’s biggest market and producer of EVs.

“As a realistic solution, hybrids are still favoured by our customers,” he told reporters.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2024/02/10/toyota-electric-cars-evs-hybrid-gold-rush/

Grumpy_chap

JKenH said:

The total included a combined 3.5 million hybrids and plug-in hybrids – a year-on-year increase of 32pc – but only 104,000 EVs.

Yoichi Miyazaki, executive vice president at Toyota, said hybrids were even selling strongly in China – the world’s biggest market and producer of EVs.

“As a realistic solution, hybrids are still favoured by our customers,” he told reporters.

That is a self-selecting cohort, though.
Someone who wishes to buy an EV likely does not have Toyota at the forefront of their mind.

Netexporter

Someone who wishes to buy an EV likely does not have Toyota at the forefront of their mind.

Indeed. The only one they do sell is made in China, under a joint venture agreement, so even that is only half a Toyota.

michaels

What are Toyota doing in Europe and the UK with the minimum EV mandates - are they buying credits from Tesla?

Martyn1981

michaels said:

What are Toyota doing in Europe and the UK with the minimum EV mandates - are they buying credits from Tesla?

I've been wondering the same, as the minimums are so high even this year at 22%, and the fines too at £15k per car.

Manufacturers can avoid (or delay) fines by putting shortfalls against near future excesses, but Toyota won't be able to argue that, as their ZEV figures are so, so low.

So ..... pay huge fines, cut sales by 90%+(?), or buy credits from anyone with an excess over 22%. Doesn't look promising for them in Europe from this year on.

JKenH

The UK accounted for 0.55%of Toyota’s worldwide sales in 2024. If 2023’s sales performance of 62,020 cars were repeated and assuming  no EV sales Toyota would face a £15k penalty on 13,644 cars. That’s a hefty sum - £204,660,000 but less than 1% of their anticipated global profits. Presumably though there will be options open to them to buy EV credits from the likes of Tesla and BYD in addition to rolling some non EV sales over into another year. 

Or Toyota could simply sell around 16k* BEVs to escape the fines. At the right price the car will sell as we have seen in other markets. In Norway, a much smaller market, they increased BZ4X sales from 872 to 5395 in 2023. Last year Toyota sold just 505 BZ4X in the UK but this year have already sold 1181. 

*assuming they sell the same number of non EVs as last year. If total sales were the same as last year then they are ahead of their 22% EV target.

Grumpy_chap

JKenH said:

The UK accounted for 0.55%of Toyota’s worldwide sales in 2024. If 2023’s sales performance of 62,020 cars were repeated and assuming  no EV sales Toyota would face a £15k penalty on 13,644 cars. That’s a hefty sum - £204,660,000 but less than 1% of their anticipated global profits. 

Assuming your figures are correct, a penalty of 1% global profits is disproportionate to 0.55% global sales.
BUT, that was for zero EV sales. 
I am not knowledgeable on how the formula works, so how many EVs Toyota need to sell in UK to reduce the penalty to either 0.55% global profits (aligned with sales proportion) or to NIL.

Interesting, the likes of Tesla and BYD will be able to see the same data you can see and will be able to use that information to value credits should they choose to sell them.

What is in it, long term, for Tesla, BYD, etc to sell credits to legacy auto?

Will legacy auto say they will not buy credits from competitors at any price and prefer to discount EV prices to achieve sufficient EV sales to avoid the tariff?

silvercar

Grumpy_chap said:

JKenH said:

The UK accounted for 0.55%of Toyota’s worldwide sales in 2024. If 2023’s sales performance of 62,020 cars were repeated and assuming  no EV sales Toyota would face a £15k penalty on 13,644 cars. That’s a hefty sum - £204,660,000 but less than 1% of their anticipated global profits. 

What is in it, long term, for Tesla, BYD, etc to sell credits to legacy auto?

Will legacy auto say they will not buy credits from competitors at any price and prefer to discount EV prices to achieve sufficient EV sales to avoid the tariff?

For Tesla etc: Money. A bit like farmers being paid to keep their fields empty.

For legacy autos: It's a calculation. I doubt there are principles involved.