Telecom Plus Discussion Area

lisyloo

Hi Paul,

"I invited you to agree with my broad statement that in the instances where we aren't the absolute cheapest, then we aren't any more than a few pounds at most dearer."

I believe I accepted that you were in the "cheapest group".
I don't think I put a number of that and I don't think I ever agreed a few pounds.
When we are talking about advertising (in the definition of the ASA) then claims should be strictly true.
It is not OK in my view (or the ASAs) to make false claims (regardless of the amount).

"You said it could be as much as £50 a year."

I believe I said I didn't have the figures to hand but "for the sake of argument" lets says £50. This is because I think that's a closer ball park than £2 or £3.
I don't think it's fair then to quote that as a claim.
It was made as a ball park and clearly stated as such.

"but when challenged to give an example you bemoan about not having enough time to substantiate your own claims..."

I am sorry about my lack of time.
I am unable to use the internet at work.
I have been through a terrible time recently at work with redundancies looming. I cannot justify losing my job right now just to satisfy your curiosity.
However I can refer you to a post here where I put a link to my figures.
http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.html?t=97&page=9&pp=10&highlight=servista
My post shows a link a a date of 24/12/2003 9:17.
Unfortunately the link doesn't work as the MSE software has been changed.
This is not my doing and doubtless you'd tell me my figures were too out of date anyway.
I just wanted to demonstrate however that it was not an unsubstansiated claim.

"You expect other people to reach and maintain standards you're not prepared to strive for yourself, Lisyloo."

Too right, I am not a company making advertising.
You are absolutely correct that the standards applied to the advertising of a company are far greater than people expressing opinion on discussion boards.

"and can only surmise that there are other ulterior motives in your notional claims about Telecom Plus's "dishonest" marketing."

You are entitled to your own opinions.
I would however refer you to the 1000s of messages I've made to help people on these boards.
The hundreds of £s I've raised for charity on these boards also.
As for "dishonest" I would also refer you to the numerous ASA judgements.

I don't have any alterior motives. I don't and have never made money from utilities. The only money I've raised is from telephone services and that has all gone to charity (I have the receipts that have all been published on these boards).

"in the other 2%, we may be up to a few quid more - but still within the "reasonable licence" to call ourselves the cheapest domestic gas and electricity suppliers in the country"

I don't think the ASA agree with this.

"METERED, that is {ie what's available to Jo Public})."

Your own company state that they may not be the cheapest for no direct debit payers. Well there are millions of people in this country without bank accounts.

"You refute this and say we're £50 dearer."

I have never made this claim.
I stated a ball park.

"Substantiate your claims please, or withdraw them and accept my view on matters."

See the ASA judgements.
I don't accept your view about "reasonable licesnse".
We will have to agree to disagree.

"I am calling your bluff, Lisyloo - time for you to produce rather than chide."

See link to ASA judgements. Smartass put it on here very recently so you won't have far too look.

PaulS43

Lisyloo,

I agree with you in lots of ways... The ASA stuff on the face of it looks very bad - but actually only affects a couple of independent distributors for Telecom Plus.

At the end of the day, Lisyloo, you have accepted that your level of credibility is different from that you exepct of others; I think you have gone and shot yourself in the foot with regard to this, big time.

How you think and what you do about other moneysaving matters or other "community" projects is like me saying "I really am kind to everyone I ever meet except people older than 60 called Albert - the fact I treat peiople older than 60 called Albert badly doesn't matter because I am so good with every one else.

Tell that to Albert !!!!!!!!

Funny how you don't have the time to provide evidence to substantiate £50 (or £40, or £35, or £30, or £25, or £20, or £15, or even £10 or more than £5) yet you have time to compile loads of posts slating Telecom Plus for continually being in the best performing group.

Direct Debits: Clutching at straws, you cite Telecom Plus's insistance for Direct Debit as a reason to fail them in comparrison to other methods of payment. Lisyloo, in order to offer the majority such a good rate on their energy prices (98% or more benefiting from the absolute cheapest rate in the country), then it is important that Telecom Plus get their money in on time. Affording people who can't or won't pay on time credit of some description would cost everybody the prize of the country's cheapest energy. So much as I sympathise with those who can't mamage their money properly so as to be able to have a bank account with Direct Debit facilities, again I think that your complaint is not quite on the ball or fair when compared with the fair reward for those who can and do actually pay on time.

Be lucky,

Paul

lisyloo

"At the end of the day, Lisyloo, you have accepted that your level of credibility is different from that you exepct of others"

There are differences that are applied in UK law between what is expected of national companies advertising and what is expected of individuals.
If you are a national company then you are expected to have certain resources available and live up to certain standards.
As an individual different standards apply.
I don't agree that you can apply the same standards to individuals as you can to a national company.
I do not have hundreds of people working for me. If I did I'm sure I could produce what you want.

"I think you have gone and shot yourself in the foot with regard to this, big time."

I don't agree.
I appreciate that not everyone will believe the claims without absoute proof.
That's something I'm willing to live with.
It doesn't mean that it didn't exist and isn't true.
There are people on these boards who know it's true as they either saw the figures or have had their own experiences.

"Affording people who can't or won't pay on time credit of some description would cost everybody the prize of the country's cheapest energy. So much as I sympathise with those who can't mamage their money properly so as to be able to have a bank account with Direct Debit facilities, again I think that your complaint is not quite on the ball or fair when compared with the fair reward for those who can and do actually pay on time."

I think it's rather unfair to say that people who don't pay by direct debit, don't pay on time and to say they don't manage their money properly.
I think you are making a few leaps there.
I don't see why you automatically associate not paying by direct debit wiht being a total loser who can't manager money.
I'm sure there are a few people on low incomes who might be offended by that.

Sorry I have to go now as it's 9:00 a.m. and I can't use the internet during working hours.

lisyloo

Back again (allowed to log in on lunch times).

"How you think and what you do about other moneysaving matters or other "community" projects is like me saying "I really am kind to everyone I ever meet except people older than 60 called Albert - the fact I treat peiople older than 60 called Albert badly doesn't matter because I am so good with every one else."

I gave it as an example of credibility.
You are of course entitled to your opinions and I guess it's possible for people to completely change their personality.
It's up to other people to decide.

"Funny how you don't have the time to provide evidence to substantiate £50 (or £40, or £35, or £30, or £25, or £20, or £15, or even £10 or more than £5) yet you have time to compile loads of posts slating Telecom Plus for continually being in the best performing group."

I have spent lots of time trying to do the former and provided you with a link (which I spent lots of time searching for).
I am sorry that it no longer works but that wasn't my doing.
I have spent a lot of time seaching for the figures also, so the time has been spent but no success at the present time.
I have spent probably more time trying to put the evidence together than posting, but one requires more time than the other, so given that I have limited resources, it may take a while to come up with goods.

"for continually being in the best performing group"

By whose standards?
On what criteria?
I would say Teleom Plus are poor performers in adhering to the Direct debit laws (and I could defiitely provide links from other people on this).
Is this your opinion or was it some sort of recognised industry award?
If it's you opinion then that's fine but lets qualify exactly what the claim amounts to and what it's backed up with.
It works both ways, if you want me to back up what I say then you need to as well.

loon_2

ok T+... pls quote me. Lets say i have gas and electric prepayment meters, do you still save me over £50 a year?

actually no need to quote, i'll just call in for one. I work from 0900 to 1900 everyday, will i be able to get one or are your office hours 0900 to 1700?

PaulS43

Lisyloo,

At the time I am writing, YOU have managed to post TWO thousand, SIX hundred and EIGHTY posts about all matters financial on this board. How long did that take you, then???

Yet, when put on the spot and asked to substantiate a claim YOU MADE that Telecom Plus "Is at least £50 dearer than the cheapest supplier", you amazingly haven't got ANY time to substantiate this AND you state that the level of truth you expect from a company is different from the level of truth others should expect from you in any case.

You have zero credibility, Lisyloo!

You have been found out and I am sitting here heartily laughing my socks off. Give up now, Lisyloo - people are laughing at you.

Keep smiling (I know I will) - and be happy.

Regards

Paul

PaulS43

Oh, an afterthought

Direct Debits.

Telecom Plus only offer their best tariffs to those who can and choose to pay by direct debit. If a customer can and elects to pay by Direct Debit, then they benefit from the cheapest domestic gas and electric* (*generally, in most cases (98% or so)) prices in the country.

Telecom Plus don't hide this from prospective customers: The reason that they can offer such good prices is because direct debits offer them prompt payment (generally) and minimal accounting overheads.

You have to compare like with like, Lisyloo. And not only that, are you honestly saying that Telecom Plus should not try to manage its business in the best way it can and make itself as efficient as possible????

I'm sitting here laughing still. I can just picture you squawking away, demanding that Telecom Plus accept your 1974 issue energy savings stamps (*** or similar) as payment (along with their interest of course). Oh, Lisyloo, thanks for giving me such a good laugh. "Young man, young man! I make the rules, you must not lie to me at all but I can pick and choose my own level of honesty - I've told you a million times not to exagerate!!!"

Paul is RotFPHWL.

Oh thankyou for making me laugh so much. Thankyou, thankyou

Smartasss

PaulS43 wrote:

I agree with you in lots of ways... The ASA stuff on the face of it looks very bad - but actually only affects a couple of independent distributors for Telecom Plus.

This is simply not true - the ASA in 2002 were adjudicating on 2 claims in your advertising:

1. "UK''s cheapest domestic electricity" and

2. "UK''s cheapest domestic gas".

The Authority advised T+ to amend the claims - they did not, and the very wording is still being used on your websites! (In defiance of this and more ASA adjudications regarding these claims since 2002)

*****************************************
I did ask you:

You say T+ don't advertise.

Perhaps you could comment on their website which does advertise that they supply "the UK's cheapest electricity and gas" in defiance of the ASA rulings against them making those claims.

Though still await any response!

*************************************

PaulS43 wrote:

you have time to compile loads of posts slating Telecom Plus for continually being in the best performing group.

By what criteria are you claiming T+ are "continually in the best performing group"?

The EnergyHelpline still has this message for anyone interested in T+:

We would only recommend Telecom Plus to the most ardent money savers

Hardly what you would expect from such a body were your claim to be true!

*************************************************
Having invested your own money in becoming a rep for T+, I can understand your enthusiasm for your organisation, but you are now making unnecessary personal jibes at two of us. (One of which is a customer of yours!)

This is not in the spirit of this Board (see the message at the top of every page).

lisyloo

"YOU have managed to post TWO thousand, SIX hundred and EIGHTY posts about all matters financial on this board. How long did that take you, then???"

Thank you for recognising my contribution.
This took quite a lot of time but I believe it was over a period of years, so you need to take that into account.
I admit to doing some of it in working hours which I cannot now do due to clamping down by my employer (which is fair enough).

"Is at least £50 dearer than the cheapest supplier"

Please provide a link to this. I dispute having said these words.
I don't dispute giving a ball park, however the words above are not my claim.

"you amazingly haven't got ANY time to substantiate this"

I do have SOME time and I have spent it searching and have provided you with a link and spent time answering all your questions.
It is not true to say I don't have ANY time.
I have LIMITED time as I am a full time worker.
I have not been able to come up with the proof in the tight timescale you are demanding. This is largely because I work full time and cannot access the internet during the day.
This does not mean that it doesn't exist and doesn't mean that I won't be able to produce it. I just cannot do it within a few days.
I am shortly going on holiday and have other personal commitments so this could take months and not just the few days that you demand.

"AND you state that the level of truth you expect from a company is different from the level of truth others should expect from you in any case."

No not quite true.
I happen to know my claims are true (and so do others).
The level of truth required is the same.
The level of resources available to absolutely PROVE those claims conclusively are certainly different.
The level of truth expected in UK law in undeniably different.
In UK Law an advertised claim from a company does not equal a claim by a non advertised claim by an individual.
This is a legal FACT.

"You have been found out and I am sitting here heartily laughing my socks off."

As pointed out by Smartass you are not behaving in the spirit of the board.
I am very happy to discuss and be questioned, however should not resort to making jibes at people. Please try and keep your comments on an adult level.

There are plenty of people out there who know what I an saying is true and do not require further proof as they have seen it already and had first hand experience.

"Give up now"

No - I know what I am saying is true, so I will carry on saying it.
The fact that I don't have absolute proof to hand, does not make it false and there are many on these boards who KNOW it to be true without proof.

"demanding that Telecom Plus accept your 1974 issue energy savings stamps"

I am quite happy to pay by direct debit personally, however there are a number of people in this country (millions in fact) with no access to bank accounts. I don't have a problem with Telecom Plus restricting themselves to direct debits. However they should adhere to the laws which they currently do not. You can see this from many other customer on these boards.
I notice that you ahave not discussed this issue.
Do you agree that they should operate within the law?

lisyloo

Paul,

Please can you express here publically the your requirements as to the figures that you require. If I am to spend a lot of my personal time researching this then I think this is only fair. My own personal figures were from 2003 and were from Servista who are no longer in existence.
I think you would dismiss these figures if I found them on the basis of being too old and not from a current supplier.

That's fair enough I guess.

You also recently expressed a requirement for METERED only supplies.
I don't mind having restrictions but I think it's only fair you tell me what they are up front.

Please can you specify exactly what it is you require and I will do my best to find it for you (might take months due to work commitments, family commentments and holidys).

I hope you understand that as a busy full time girl, I can't spend hours on a wild goose chase, so please specify your requirements.

e.g.

a) update to date tarrifs
b) current prices
c) METERED only

etc. etc.

I hope you agree that it's only fair to lay down the ground rules in this "competition" before investing effort.

I do have to warn you though that I will not be able to do this within a few days as I have other things which I am afraid are more important.