Telecom Plus Discussion Area

Smartasss

PaulS43 (from T+) wrote:

"if the company's heart is in the right place then surely it is doing (or attempting to do) the right thing"

1) If the company was ethical and had its heart in the right place it wouldn't start its relationship with potential customers with misleading statements - and it would not ignore the ASA when it rules against them.

2) It would advise of price increases in advance of implementing them (not AFTER the event)

3) It would accept that from time to time its customers may wish to challenge the correctness of their invoices (T+ regularly leaves their customers with little time to ensure their bank account has the correct funds before collecting their money (in breach of their Ts + Cs), and we know that they store credit/debit card numbers and collect any unpaid accounts that way, should a disgruntled customer have the timerity to stop their direct debit pending the outcome of a dispute.

4) It would adopt the industry norm, and collect standing charges in arrears, not in advance.

lisyloo

I agree with you that it is nigh-on impossible to be the cheapest in every case.
In which case I don't think that Tplus should make these claims and the Advertising standards authority agree with me.

No I don't agree that they would be the cheapest by 2 or 3 pounds, from my own personal experience then I would say it's more than this.

I accept that they are generally good value for gas and elericity (not for the phone service).

They probably are in the "cheapest group" of suppliers and I wouldn't have problem with adverts which boasted the truth.

I don't believe that I am up tight and I'm not sure I've said anythign that indicates that. I just believe it's unfair to mislead people with false advertising and so do the ASA (advertising standards authority) who have rules against TPlus on numberous occassion and told them to clean up their act.

I am not sure that their heart is in the right place.
My experience is that they mislead with their advertising (upheld several times by the ASA).
Also my experience is that they have a total disregard for the laws concerning direct debits. I have complained (and others) and they show no regard for the law or their own promises.

I am not uptight about it, I just wish people to know the truth and I believe it's people like me who should stand up for those who are not able to (like elderly forgetful relatives).

pgmk

I'm afraid you missed your target. No, I don't have elderly and confused relatives, parents, aunts, etc, because they are all dead! I am myself one of the quote old and vulnerable unquote that many (fortunately not all) young people tend to think are stupid and can be patronised. As for selfish, before I retired I gave 40 years of my spare time helping those less fortunate than myself. Can you say the same?
I do however, have adult children. Two are now customers of T+ because it was also the cheapest supplier for them, one can't be bothered to dig out her bills so I can work out the figures, and for one T+ is not the cheapest so she is not a customer. I simply make the point that you cannot generalise - each case should be worked out on its own merits for ther sole benefit of the customer concerned.
Three points:
1) Anybody, young or old, who believes implicitly in the advertising of ANY Company without reading the small print or checking it out, needs their head examined!
2) I am not aware that T+ claims to be the cheapest for EVERYBODY. In fact, in their literature, they specifically say they are NOT - and if you don't know where they say that you havn't studied them very well and so don't know what you are talking about. It seems to me that you are putting words in their mouth and then criticising them for it. Study the grammatical implications of their advertising - I agree they tend to put across the best impression they can, but then isn't that what all companies do in their advertising?
3) As far as I am aware (and I may be wrong in this one since I am relying on previous extracts in this thread - I may have missed one) the Advertising Standards Authority have NOT said that T+ ISN'T the cheapest, just that they have not provided proof that they ARE!

lisyloo

I think you might have misunderstood what I meant.
Elderly people are one group of people who might fall into the vulnerable category. There are many otheres, for example
1) illiterate people
2) people who are academically challenged and can't understand the ts and cs
3) very young and naive people who didn't get any consumer education at school.
I am not ageist but it is a fact that diseases like alzheimers are associated with the elderly.

I am not sure where the references to selfish came in. It's not a word I've used in my posts. Perhaps that refers to someone elses post.

"Anybody, young or old, who believes implicitly in the advertising of ANY Company without reading the small print or checking it out, needs their head examined"

I think this is an extreme view.
I know many people who are not capable of either reading or understanding the terms and conditions. I also know many people who do not have the time to thoroughly check out every supplier they use - these people are called parents.
I also know a 3rd group of people who are more interested in enjoying themselves and going skiing and snowboarding etc. and I say - good luck to them.

"Study the grammatical implications of their advertising"

I don't agree with your interpretation.
But perhaps with only a Maths degree I am sufficiently academically challenged to not understadn the grammar.
Perhaps one needs a law or english degree to be able to understand it properly.
As stated above, not everybody has the intelligence, time or inclination to "study" every transaction they undertake.
You should not need a degree in law to understand the claims, the advertising should not be constructed to mislead everyone who doesn't have a master degrees in an appropriate subject.

"the Advertising Standards Authority have NOT said that T+ ISN'T the cheapest, just that they have not provided proof that they ARE!"

I can't comment either way and don't have time to look it up.
But the point is that they shouldn't be making the claims if they can't prove it.
We know (and you know from one of your relatives) that they are not always the cheapest.

PaulS43

Lisyloo,

You refer to the weaker members of society - the elderly, illiterate, etc. And go on to infer that Telecom Plus prey on these people to create a customer base.

I think your angst is actually misplaced.

There are dishonest people out there who lie to a prospect to make a sale. Although I am unable to give specific examples, I regret to concede that there must be some INDEPENDENT Telecom Plus distributors who will lie and lie and lie to get customers. Just as there are reps for Powergen, British Gas, London Energy, Northern Power, Virgin Energy, etc, etc, etc. They bring the whole industry into disrepute.

When a TP rep knocks on anyone's door and offers them energy, however, there is a check and balance against conning the individual which is not present in most if not all of the other companies - this check / balance has stopped me from actively going out to Sell TP (the Utility Warehouse) NOT BECAUSE I AM A CONMAN, I might add - but because the sign up to energy through Telecom Plus is in two hits.

A prospective customer signs up with me FOR A WRITTEN QUOTE and then gets a contract back along with their quote. No-one ever rung me to say we were dearer (quoting) than their previous suppliers BUT people are lazy and large numbers don't sign the second form (the contract itself), even though they are going to save themselves some more money (they retrospectively say "oh it's too much hassle" {sticking a signature on the 2nd form and putting it in the post}) - and thus as a salesman, I don't get paid at all.

What do I get paid from those people who I've introduced to Telecom Plus? I get £2.50 for each new customer taking on a service (provided they stay at least 3 months, else it's clawed back), I then get 2.4% of their monthly spend on energy *IF* I have 50 current, active customers *OR* have signed up someone new that month. I have around 25 current active customers (I did once have 34). Most months, therefore, I don't actually get paid ANY 2.4%s because I no longer actively ply the trade.

I am a salesman by trade - business to business. Over my small base salary, I earn roughly £800 a time in commission for a business product costing around £6,000 which saves the user perhaps £10,000 a year. I am an ethical salesman in as much as I do not lie to people to get a deal - the products I sell are good enough to sell without needing to be dishonest in any way, shape or form.

Coming back to Telecom Plus, all that hard work (which takes just as long as my main job in pursuading someone to order my wares) to do a member of the public a favour (where you have accepted that if not the absolute cheapest, then they are no more than a few quid per annum dearer at most), where people are sceptical because so many people want to screw them - where you get them a quote IN WRITING but where they are still too bone idle and lazy to sign the thing and send it back - all for two and a half quid is something I have grown out of.

But that doesn't make TP a bad company because it is passing the savings onto its customers rather than paying me shedloads of money for products and services everyone in the country has to use every day of their lives!

It is a good all round service which saves people a lot of money. It is constantly amongst the very best energy deals in the country.

I would respectfully suggest "picking" over a few pounds per annum at most in the odd cases where TP isn't actually the absolute cheapest in the country is a great deal of wasted energy in itself.

I would condemn the dishonest which statistics would suggest are amongst us. But the vast amount of TP distributors earn between £10 and £20 a month in commission - and do so quite honestly. The constant inuendo that ALL OF US are bent or are 'screwing' the old, inferm or illiterate really is a bit much. I for one find it quite offensive.

Please think about this when posting (not just you, Lisyloo - there are a handful of others too).


Take care, people.

Smartasss

PaulS43 wrote:

No-one ever rung me to say we were dearer (quoting) than their previous suppliers.

That is because when you are dearer, then you don't send a quote!

(You send them a standard letter from your Mr Wolpert suggesting that despite your charges being unable to provide savings the prospect may wish to "benefit from a single monthly bill and high levels of customer service you provide", and still continue with the application!)

******************************
No-one has posted to say T+ reps are all bent - but there is certainly evidence to show sharp practices have been adopted by some of your colleagues postings on this Board.

(This includes such practices as posing as satisfied customers of a company called T+, posting provocatively using aliases, developing "selective" deafness when awkward questions have been posed about T+ and quoting T+ charges exclusive of VAT against other suppliers inclusive charges)

Whenever these "sharp practices" have been detected, then the T+ rep has been exposed - but where have you read that all have been accused of being bent etc?

lisyloo

"You refer to the weaker members of society - the elderly, illiterate, etc. And go on to infer that Telecom Plus prey on these people to create a customer base."

Not correct at all. I think the vast majority of the population don't check out their suppliers. The people I would like to protect are the weaker members of society. Those who are too lazy can look out for themselves.
I was just explaining the reasons why some of us care about others.

"A prospective customer signs up with me FOR A WRITTEN QUOTE and then gets a contract back along with their quote."

I never got a quote.

"No-one ever rung me to say we were dearer (quoting) than their previous suppliers"

Well I had a cheaper supplier (perhaps why I didn't get a quote).

I have not critised TPlus reps or said you shouldn't get paid.
I am criticising the companies advertising and attititued towards direct debits.
This has NOTHING to do with the reps.

"where you have accepted that if not the absolute cheapest, then they are no more than a few quid per annum dearer at most"

No I have not accepted this and I have explicity said so.
From my experience it is more than this and I've said so in a previous post.

"where you get them a quote IN WRITING"

NO - I didn't get this, so stop harping on about it.


"But that doesn't make TP a bad company because it is passing the savings onto its customers rather than paying me shedloads of money for products and services everyone in the country has to use every day of their lives"

Agreed - it's their advertising and direct debit system that I'm criticising.

"I would respectfully suggest "picking" over a few pounds per annum at most in the odd cases where TP isn't actually the absolute cheapest in the country is a great deal of wasted energy in itself."

This is not the only problem.
Lack of notice for direct debits can cause people serious financial problems adn that's just one example.

"The constant inuendo that ALL OF US are bent or are 'screwing' the old, inferm or illiterate really is a bit much. I for one find it quite offensive."

I have not said a single word about the reps.
I have criticised the advertising of the COMPANY and it's upheld by the ASA.
If you have taken personal offense then you haven't read what I've said as I haven't criticised a rep once.

PaulS43

Hi Lisyloo,

You said

I never got a quote.

Well I had a cheaper supplier (perhaps why I didn't get a quote).

If you signed up for Energy from Telecom Plus you will have had to have had a quote along with the contracts to sign: You actually are (or have been) an energy customer, haven't you?

You also quoted man and then said

"where you have accepted that if not the absolute cheapest, then they are no more than a few quid per annum dearer at most"

No I have not accepted this and I have explicity said so.
From my experience it is more than this and I've said so in a previous post.

Well how much dearer have you found Telecom Plus to be over the course of a year? Is it £5, £10, £20, £50, £100 or God forbid, even more??? Please forgive me, I thought you accepted that if not the absolute cheapest in every given circumstance, then TP would certainly be in the leading group of cheapest firms. In the worst case scenario you have found, how much dearer?

Your post goes on to say that the advertising made by the company breaches ASA rules - Lisyloo, the company doesn't advertise. It is an MLM company, it's independent distributors bring new customers to the company. People who peddle unapproved literature (or who otherwise might mislead) get weeded out and removed from the company's distributor list.

As for Direct Debit problems, I really can't comment because I haven't had any customer of mine call me to complain about a problem. If there is a problem with the taking of a direct debit, then the customer should complain to his bank and ask for a refund - that's within the bounds of the DD protection schemes run by the banks. If TP are doing something they shouldn't regarding DDs, it won't take too many complaints to get their 'licence' revoked by the banks themselves.

Moving on, Smartass, you commented about and questioned my statement that a quote is sent out with a contract for the prospective customer to sign:

That is because when you are dearer, then you don't send a quote!

(You send them a standard letter from your Mr Wolpert suggesting that despite your charges being unable to provide savings the prospect may wish to "benefit from a single monthly bill and high levels of customer service you provide", and still continue with the application!)

I would respectfully suggest if I had got a letter in the form which you state, I would in any case stay where I was AND it is impossible to continue with an application for energy unless and until the prospective customer signs the contract to take the service on. It is not possible for TP to continue without the customer's explicit ongoing consent because in order to take the energy service(s) from TP because the customer must sign the contract!!! Without a signature on the contract (which is posted to the customer - not the TP distributor {I have asked about this because it would have helped me get better results having 'sold' it once already}), TP can't continue with an application.

If you have any questions or observations about TP, please do ask away and I shall endevour to answer them as fully as possible. If I don't know an answer, I will say "I don't know", if I am asked a "cute" or disingenuous question, I'll smile and decline to comment.

Please feel free to ask away.

Smartasss

PaulS43 wrote:

............Your post goes on to say that the advertising made by the company breaches ASA rules, the company doesn't advertise. It is an MLM company, it's independent distributors bring new customers to the company. People who peddle unapproved literature (or who otherwise might mislead) get weeded out and removed from the company's distributor list.

As for Direct Debit problems, I really can't comment because I haven't had any customer of mine call me to complain about a problem. If there is a problem with the taking of a direct debit, then the customer should complain to his bank and ask for a refund - that's within the bounds of the DD protection schemes run by the banks. If TP are doing something they shouldn't regarding DDs, it won't take too many complaints to get their 'licence' revoked by the banks themselves.

But Telecom+ do advertise - their ads have been brought to the attention of the ASA who have adjudicated against them.

For the recent complaints which have been upheld see:

ASA ajdudication June 2004

ASA ajdudication September 2004

In addition they have numerous websites filled with advertising, but the ASA does not control internet advertising, thus they are able to get away with misleading ads on the net.

With regard to DD problems, two points:

1) It is well documented (from even your most loyal customers) that your bills arrive late and do not give enough notice of the amount to be taken. (A breach of the contract, in fact)

2) If customers have the timerity to interfere with a DD payment, then T+ uses it's draconian Ts + Cs to take payment from any other credit or debit card the customer has used with them in the past. (i.e. T+ stores customers credit/debit card numbers for any possible future use should a direct debit fail - even if the failure is a result of a disputed bill or breach by T+ of the DD agreement)

lisyloo

"If you signed up for Energy from Telecom Plus you will have had to have had a quote along with the contracts to sign: You actually are (or have been) an energy customer, haven't you?"

I am a Telecom Plus customer and I swear I have never had a quote.
I did get the contract to sign but never a quote.
If you want to investigate further then perhaps try Lewis Gremelou (who is/was a memeber of these boards). If you are really interested in investigating why thn I could give you my account numbers (privately).
My assumption is that I didn't get a quote because Tplus were more expensive that my current supplier.

"Well how much dearer have you found Telecom Plus to be over the course of a year? Is it £5, £10, £20, £50, £100 or God forbid, even more??? "

I don't actually have the exact figures to hand but it was certainly more than £2 or £3. Lets say £50 for my best guess.
I am not sure what difference the actual amount makes though.
Either they are the cheapest or they are not.
They should not be making claims even if they are only 1p dearer.
I am not sure why you are so hung up on the amount.
The amount is not important is my view, the issue is whether they are telling the claims are true. A single penny over makes them not true.

"Please forgive me, I thought you accepted that if not the absolute cheapest in every given circumstance, then TP would certainly be in the leading group of cheapest firms."

In most cases probably.
In a few cases with the Staywarm tarrif then there might be a bigger difference.
Again I am not sure what difference being in the "leading group" makes.
The claim being disputed is being "the cheapest".
Being 2nd is not good enough it makes the claim false.

"In the worst case scenario you have found, how much dearer?"

For the sake of argument lets say £50, but I fail to see the relevance.
The point is about whether the truth is being told.
It's not OK to make false claims and then say "Well it was ONLY £2 so it's OK".

"Your post goes on to say that the advertising made by the company breaches ASA rules - Lisyloo, the company doesn't advertise."

You will have to discuss the semantics with the ASA.
All I know is that complaints have been upheld several times.

"As for Direct Debit problems, I really can't comment because I haven't had any customer of mine call me to complain about a problem."

Hansi and myself have both had problems reported on this board. As for taking the problems to the bank - I simply don't have enough life to do this every month given that I accept I have to pay the bill.
What's the point in getting a refund and then paying it say 3 days later - completely pointless and a waste of my time in my view.
If you want to spend your life doing this then go ahead - I have better things to do.

"I would respectfully suggest if I had got a letter in the form which you state, I would in any case stay"

I was not able to stay with my last supplier as they were closing.
I had no choice but to go for a more expensive option.