EVs - are we going to be forced into this before time?

Herzlos

You could easily have a charging point with 4 or 5 cables coming out of it to allow them to share the charging. A 7kw* charger could easily keep 5 average mileage cars charged overnight. (5 average mileage cars would be about 30kwh, which is only 4.5 hours @ 7kw).

Bump that up to 12 hours (6pm -> 6am) and the same charger, with sufficient wiring, could keep 14 cars topped up.

So the problem is that the infrastructure needs to catch up, not the physics behind the charging.

*The standard domestic single-phase charger. You could support 40 odd cars with a 2-phase 22kw charger like you find at charging points, and so on.

Edit: Fixing my phases.

sheramber

The queue thing is an issue *now*, but remember that petrol stations were rare when they were new too, so more EV's on the road will mean more charging infrastructure. As ranges improve you'll need them less too.
There's no reason why every parking space in a motorway services couldn't provide at least a 7KW charger, with some bays offering faster options (I think we're up to 100kw).

I did say there would have to be more infrastructure to make it possible.

ElefantEd

It is very easy to imagine a set up where there are 5 leads going into one charging point, and software automatically charges them up in turn. I doubt people would be getting up at 5am to plug their car in.

I agree we should fit all houses with solar panels, but that's a separate issue. Also, the wind blows somewhere in the UK all the time. It is very rare for their to be no wind and no sun anywhere! Plus, offshore wind is more consistent.

Petriix

Penelopa.Pitstop said:

Petriix said:

Let's dispel a few myths:

1. EVs can't do long journeys... Well there is such a thing as a rapid charger (of which there are thousands throughout the UK). It can take a bit of planning but the necessity of a 40 minute stop every 150 miles is not exactly a hardship. And, guess what, you don't have to drain your battery by driving everywhere at 70+.
2. People who can't charge at home can't have an EV... Except most people don't drive 200 miles per day, every day. With average mileage of 10k per year, that's less than 30 miles per day so one full charge per week to 10 days. In practice we charge a small amount whenever we can. 40% of my charging is free from supermarkets. People can often charge at work, otherwise it's a case of finding a public charger to use, and there are many to choose from.
3. EVs are expensive to charge... Only if you solely rely on rapid chargers or have an extortionate home electricity tariff. Octopus are still accepting people onto their Go tariff for EVs. It's 7.5p off peak now. That's about 2p per mile in an EV.

Using an Audi Etron as an example of EV efficiency is a bit like using a Landrover as an example for MPG. I'm averaging around 3.8 miles per kWh in total over 10k miles. It's cost under £120 in charging, although I do put quite a lot of effort into minimising the cost where others wouldn't bother.

The fact is that EVs would be impractical for a small proportion of drivers and they are currently financially out of reach for many. As longer range EVs hit the market (range seems to be doubling every 3-4 years), there will be more options for everyone and far less need to really think about charging.

1. It's in no way practical or convenient to stop every 150 miles for minimum of 40 minutes, assuming no one else is occupying charging station and it's not broken. It you can't charge, you have to look for another charging point while running low on "fuel". Electric cars might be fine if you driving around your area, but certainly not for weekend trips or longer euro-trips. Going to camp site 100 miles away and no electricity there, how do I go back? Have to waste time to find a way to charge my car. I drive every summer min. 1000 miles one way and electric car will never be good for that. I will be that stubborn person, that will keep diesel/petrol car as long as possible. I loved 3.0 V6 diesel, it could take me across Europe on one tank.

2. Most people don't, but there are people driving longer distances than school, shop, work around corner.

3. What about others without driveways and charging points at work?

BTW, there are no public charging points in my area. I haven't seen any on the street or supermarket car park. And it's town within M25.

It's actually illegal to drive further than 150 miles without taking a break and, in practice, most people stop closer to once every 100 miles. I'm sure there will be some people who chime in with 'I drive 400 miles every day and never slow below 80, even for roundabouts' but everyone should be stopping for regular breaks simply for safety. It's relatively simple to plan stops for locations with plenty of chargers.

Remember that most places you go will have electricity and more locations are adding EV charging all the time, so you plan to stop for food somewhere you can charge, you book accommodation with charging (or run the 3 pin charger out the window). You adapt around the possible charging options rather than complaining that you can't do everything exactly as you would if you were driving a petrol car. The great thing is that you don't have to stand around waiting for the car to charge, you can go off and do something else.

You're implying that longer distances than the school run are somehow problematic. That's nonsense. I'm consistently getting about 170 miles of range in winter and well over 200 in summer. That's a hell of a lot of school runs, shopping trips and other local journeys, but it's also enough for a 20 mile daily commute off a single charge per week or 3 days of 25 miles each way. If you're commuting further then the fuel savings would be enormous. 100 miles per day? That's £15 in petrol or £1.50 in electricity.

I wouldn't currently advise people to switch to EV if they don't have a reasonable low-cost charging option at or near home or work; but it's worth running the numbers depending on your situation before dismissing it out of hand. Generous BIK rates and strong residuals can make the overall monthly costs of 'owning' an EV lower than that of a lower spec fossil fuel car.

I strongly suspect that you're mistaken if you think that there are any towns within the M25 without chargers, just because you haven't seen them doesn't mean they don't exist. Share the first part of your postcode and I'll show you a map with dozens of chargers nearby.

Jenni_D

Herzlos said:

*The standard domestic 2-phase charger. You could support 40 odd cars with a 3-phase 22kw charger like you find at charging points, and so on.

Are you sure? I thought a 7KW charger (nominal 32A feed) was fed via a 40A MCB from a domestic single phase supply?

k6chris

My criteria for going EV are:

• Real world range of 400 miles +
• Tow bar, with ability to tow up to 1,000 kg for at least 200 miles
  
• Purchase (or leasing) cost not a premium to ICE
• Charging infrastucture giving readily available public charging points.
  

Not there yet, but my ICE is still going strong, so not worried.  By 2030, I am sure these things will be in place

Herzlos

k6chris said:

My criteria for going EV are:

• Real world range of 400 miles +
• Tow bar, with ability to tow up to 1,000 kg for at least 200 miles
  
• Purchase (or leasing) cost not a premium to ICE
• Charging infrastucture giving readily available public charging points.
  

Not there yet, but my ICE is still going strong, so not worried.  By 2030, I am sure these things will be in place

That's a pretty obscure criteria though, but not totally unreasonable. I'd be pretty happy with a car with the above spec (albeit I'd rather be able to tow 1500-2000kg). In reality I'd need an awful lot less though.

The Tesla model X comes close, it falls short on range with only about 348 miles, but it'll tow 2268kg. It can add 175 miles range in 15 minutes and can apparently do 0-60 in about 3.8 seconds (2.5s if you go for the 1000hp Plaid version). If I had the money it'd be a no brainer....


Most people don't need the 400 mile range, or the towing. Ownership costs are already on par (or better) than ICE, and there's plenty of infrastructure available.

Jenni_D said:

Herzlos said:

*The standard domestic 2-phase charger. You could support 40 odd cars with a 3-phase 22kw charger like you find at charging points, and so on.

Are you sure? I thought a 7KW charger (nominal 32A feed) was fed via a 40A MCB from a domestic single phase supply?

You're right, I've got my phases mixed up. I'll remove them as not actually relevant.

henry24

Petriix  could you show me where it says it's illegal to drive more than 150 miles without taking a break as that could be as little as 90 minutes but a truck driver can drive for 270 minutes without stopping and how would the police be able to prove how long you'd been driving for 

Belenus

Petriix said:

It's actually illegal to drive further than 150 miles without taking a break and, in practice, most people stop closer to once every 100 miles. I'm sure there will be some people who chime in with 'I drive 400 miles every day and never slow below 80, even for roundabouts' but everyone should be stopping for regular breaks simply for safety. 

I am unaware of any such law applying to private drivers and I doubt that one exists.

Perhaps you mean HGV, PSV and other non private drivers.

Brie

I agree that I could put a charging point in at home, with help of someone who is qualified.  But the cost of the cars is much too high still and there are no places near work where I could charge nor any of the vast majority of places I shop.  There are whole sections of the city where I live that are unlikely to ever get charging points due to no off road parking - unless there's something flashy like points directly on the road so that the EV charges overnight.  (thinking of the iphone charging pads...)  Otherwise in a suburban area with a population of maybe 250k I know of one onstreet charging point and 2 supermarket ones.  

I would be happy to have all employers forced to install charging points but doubt that this will be done any time soon and currently somewhat pointless given how many are still WFH exclusively.