EVs - are we going to be forced into this before time?

Jenni_D

If the hype is to be believed, the new Tesla Roadster will do 600+ miles on a full charge (so let's say 500 miles more likely in real world settings) ... that's ICE vehicle territory.

Yes, it'll take longer to "refill", but EVs require a mental shift in how you consider and use them ... short burst "refills" when necessary during breaks in a journey with a full "refill" at home or work. It's a different mindset to how you use an ICE vehicle.

Bachelorplace

Good calculations Herz.

I made an error on my OP - a charge cost £7.51 to 3/4 full,  I then did 74 miles, and the E-tron used all that and more. i.e. had run out almost to zero. Despite at the point of charging, it said range 200 something which I can't recall. 

Here is a screen shot of the electric bill charging at home that week in Aug for the same car, I topped it up a couple of times over night from a plug.

NBLondon

That chart suggests that using an EV tripled the electricity usage for the month of August!  Or in monetary terms added at least £130.  Which looks an awful lot...  Did it save £130 worth of fossil fuel for the same mileage covered?

NBLondon

Herzlos said:

Most EV drivers will be charging the car fully at home/work, and only using expensive fast charging stations when they need to refuel mid trip, so will be paying nothing like the per mile cost that you get from petrol.

Massive assumption there...   Most current EV drivers do that - it's a factor in when you make the decision to change.  There are still going to be plenty of people who cannot easily charge at home and do not drive to work.  

Deleted_User said:

By 2030 EV will be doing way more range than ICE and charging will be widespread and cheap

I hope that's the case.

TooManyPoints

However, that goes down drastically if you can charge on a home tariff where it can go down as far as £0.05/kwh for the same journey 

There are some people living in my area who are lucky to be able to park 200 yards from their home. More usually it's in the next street. And do tell me where I can get leccy at 5p per kwh and I'll sign up.

The idea that the entire country will be roaring around in leccy cars in ten years' time is pie in the sky. Huge numbers of people cannot park near their homes and will have no way of charging their vehicles from their home supply. I'm lucky - I've got a drive and a garage. No problems for me. A short distance away there are a dozen roads of terraced houses with space for one car in the road outside each (provided nobody has a car much bigger than a mini). There is no way that infrastructure will be in place to serve these people in twenty years time, let alone ten. It makes no difference anyway. As I write (no wind or sun), 65% of the country's electricity demand is being met by burning gas, wood or coal. That also is unlikely to change in ten years and nor will the extra demand raised by EV vehicles be able to be met. All that EVs are doing is replacing burning something in the vehicle to burning something somewhere else. A few people who live in big houses might have one to pop to the shops but for most of the population they are completely impractical.  Hopefully somebody will realise the Emperor is wearing no clothes before it all gets out of hand.  

victor2

More nuclear power stations are currently the only realistic way of generating enough "green" electricity for a large population of EVs. They take quite a few years to build - and much, much longer to decommission!

Battery technology will (and has to) improve significantly along with a charging infrastructure that people who don't have personal parking can actually use.

By then maybe flux capacitors will be standard issue in most cars too, which will reduce journey time.

sheramber

What do those who live in flats  and  those who cannot park on their own drive. Will there be lengths on cable running down buildings  or across pavements? Not likely to be allowed so wha is the answer? 

How long do you have wait when there are 6 people in front of you wanting to 'refill' to continue there journey of  possibly hundreds of miles if going on holiday.

Do you want to spend time on your holiday searching out charging points and again possibly waiting in a queue.?

There will need to be a lot of infrastructure put in place before it becomes practical for everyone.

Petriix

Let's dispel a few myths:

1. EVs can't do long journeys... Well there is such a thing as a rapid charger (of which there are thousands throughout the UK). It can take a bit of planning but the necessity of a 40 minute stop every 150 miles is not exactly a hardship. And, guess what, you don't have to drain your battery by driving everywhere at 70+.
2. People who can't charge at home can't have an EV... Except most people don't drive 200 miles per day, every day. With average mileage of 10k per year, that's less than 30 miles per day so one full charge per week to 10 days. In practice we charge a small amount whenever we can. 40% of my charging is free from supermarkets. People can often charge at work, otherwise it's a case of finding a public charger to use, and there are many to choose from.
3. EVs are expensive to charge... Only if you solely rely on rapid chargers or have an extortionate home electricity tariff. Octopus are still accepting people onto their Go tariff for EVs. It's 7.5p off peak now. That's about 2p per mile in an EV.

Using an Audi Etron as an example of EV efficiency is a bit like using a Landrover as an example for MPG. I'm averaging around 3.8 miles per kWh in total over 10k miles. It's cost under £120 in charging, although I do put quite a lot of effort into minimising the cost where others wouldn't bother.

The fact is that EVs would be impractical for a small proportion of drivers and they are currently financially out of reach for many. As longer range EVs hit the market (range seems to be doubling every 3-4 years), there will be more options for everyone and far less need to really think about charging.

Herzlos

NBLondon said:

That chart suggests that using an EV tripled the electricity usage for the month of August!  Or in monetary terms added at least £130.  Which looks an awful lot...  Did it save £130 worth of fossil fuel for the same mileage covered?

It looks like July was about £50, so assuming August is more like July than September, it's added about £100. Without knowing how many miles he added it's meaningless though.

NBLondon said:

Herzlos said:

Most EV drivers will be charging the car fully at home/work, and only using expensive fast charging stations when they need to refuel mid trip, so will be paying nothing like the per mile cost that you get from petrol.

Massive assumption there...   Most current EV drivers do that - it's a factor in when you make the decision to change.  There are still going to be plenty of people who cannot easily charge at home and do not drive to work.  

Even in the future most EV drivers will be able to charge somewhere the car is sitting idle, even if it's not at home.

TooManyPoints said:

However, that goes down drastically if you can charge on a home tariff where it can go down as far as £0.05/kwh for the same journey 

There are some people living in my area who are lucky to be able to park 200 yards from their home. More usually it's in the next street. And do tell me where I can get leccy at 5p per kwh and I'll sign up.

I was thinking Octopus go but that's gone up to 7.5p/kwh.

victor2 said:

More nuclear power stations are currently the only realistic way of generating enough "green" electricity for a large population of EVs. They take quite a few years to build - and much, much longer to decommission!

Battery technology will (and has to) improve significantly along with a charging infrastructure that people who don't have personal parking can actually use.

By then maybe flux capacitors will be standard issue in most cars too, which will reduce journey time.

Nah, green energy can produce most of the power needed, with either nuclear for the base loads or pumped storage for peaks.
There are new nuclear options that are pretty safe and clean, so it's to a terrible idea.

sheramber said:

What do those who live in flats  and  those who cannot park on their own drive. Will there be lengths on cable running down buildings  or across pavements? Not likely to be allowed so wha is the answer? 

How long do you have wait when there are 6 people in front of you wanting to 'refill' to continue there journey of  possibly hundreds of miles if going on holiday.

Do you want to spend time on your holiday searching out charging points and again possibly waiting in a queue.?

There will need to be a lot of infrastructure put in place before it becomes practical for everyone.

Those who can't charge at home will presumably take their car somewhere else, like to work, train station or shops.They'll be able to charge there.
For those who can't charge at home and never take their car anywhere with chargers, they'll need to make a special trip. At current average uses and ranges that'd be maybe once a fortnight. They can then leave the car to charge and go have a coffee or browse facebook or something.

The queue thing is an issue *now*, but remember that petrol stations were rare when they were new too, so more EV's on the road will mean more charging infrastructure. As ranges improve you'll need them less too.
There's no reason why every parking space in a motorway services couldn't provide at least a 7KW charger, with some bays offering faster options (I think we're up to 100kw).


This stuff is all the standard anti-ev stuff that's been long debunked.  There is a big mindset shift moving to electric, just as there was a shift when we went from horses to cars. There are some downsides (stopping on long journeys, towing capacity, driving into the middle of nowhere), but considerable upsides (reduced cost, reduced complexity, better performance, more convenient refuelling for most).

Herzlos

Bachelorplace said:

Good calculations Herz.

I made an error on my OP - a charge cost £7.51 to 3/4 full,  I then did 74 miles, and the E-tron used all that and more. i.e. had run out almost to zero. Despite at the point of charging, it said range 200 something which I can't recall.

I'm impressed you managed to only get 74 miles out of a car with a 200+ mile range unless there was something wrong with it. How hard were you driving it? Were you in the full power mode?