Boundary problem

BrainDrained

The solutions are fairly simple if the OP wants to go for it - put up a fence to deal with the back garden, and (optionally) put a low fence along where he believes the front boundary to be.  Then deal with the fallout if the neighbour kicks off....

Back fence, I don't think he has a leg to stand on.  Just working out the cheapest way to do this.  Pallets sound good...
I'll plant some holly in front and tell him the pallets are temporary till the holly grows tall enough.  I don't hate him enough to plant leylandii, but that is something I might have to consider.

He doesn't yet know I'm seriously thinking about selling up - it's something I've been thinking about for a couple of years but this has pushed me more towards actually doing it.  I am wondering now if I give them a simple option, sort out this amicably now to allow me to sell, or put up with me for as long as they live there, would he likely see that as an invitation to continue this bullying?   

As for the front fence, I expect he will immediately remove anything I put there.  Which then leaves us with the problem of how do I stop him - and how do I get him to pay for it?  I really ought to stop overthinking things, but I'd like to know what are my options if it comes to this.  Police round here are useless.

thegreenone

@BrainDrained I don't want to be a doom-monger but you need to get this access to his rear garden sorted asap.  Before he starts bringing builders/diggers etc through to dig up the back garden. 

Please get a boundary surveyor and legal advice.  Yes it will cost, but your peace of mind that it's all sorted is precious, particularly if you want to sell.  

Section62

thegreenone said:

@BrainDrained I don't want to be a doom-monger but you need to get this access to his rear garden sorted asap.  Before he starts bringing builders/diggers etc through to dig up the back garden. 

Please get a boundary surveyor and legal advice.  Yes it will cost, but your peace of mind that it's all sorted is precious, particularly if you want to sell.  

I'd suggest the OP needs to decide on overall strategy before spending money on a boundary surveyor and/or legal advice.

Based on what they have said so far there appears to be no need for either in relation to the rear fence - the position of the boundary isn't disputed, only the OP's right to put up a (higher) fence.  So long as there is nothing in their deeds or planning restrictions on the height of fences, there is nothing to stop them going ahead with a fence up to 2m high (1.8m to be safer).  The only reason not to do this might be worsening of relations with the neighbours, which is not something professionals can really help with.

The front boundary hardly seems worth the expense of a boundary surveyor, especially as the OP thinks it possible that part of their driveway encroaches onto the neighbour's side of the line, and therefore the result of that professional advice might be the OP needing to give up part of their drive.

The question has to be what benefit is going to be achieved here.... and whether that could be achieved by less costly (and time consuming) means.

Bendy_House

[Deleted User] said:

TL;DR

If you are thinking of moving then best to just do it, leave the problems for the next owners. As long as you legally don't have to declare it then it's buyer beware.

And if the prospective buyer asks you - as I did the seller of our house - "What are the neighbours like? Do you get on with them...?" What do you say?

Perhaps. "Oh...um...we don't have much to do with them..." as my seller did?

melb

I have read all the comments but still cannot understand why your neighbour needs to go through your garden to access theirs at the back?

As for the people saying prospective buyers of your house won't be interested in where the boundary lies between the two driveways at the front, I beg to differ.  As someone who has had to endure a court case over exactly this situation this would immediately raise a red flag if there was no discernable boundary line.  The neighbour's insistence that you do not erect a fence is also worrying - I would expect maybe a caravan to appear at some point in the future as otherwise why would they be intent on trying to pinch every last inch?

They do sound like bullies - I suggest you do contact the police and inform them you are feeling intimidated by your neighbours, that they are causing damage to shared areas in your gardens and then put up some sort of barrier at the front and contact the police when they remove it.  In order to keep costs down in the back garden could you attach some trellising on top of the existing fence?

Section62

melb said:

As for the people saying prospective buyers of your house won't be interested in where the boundary lies between the two driveways at the front, I beg to differ.  As someone who has had to endure a court case over exactly this situation this would immediately raise a red flag if there was no discernable boundary line.

What percentage of the buying public have endured a court case?  Relatively few people have a boundary dispute with a neighbour that leads to those kind of problems.

The majority won't, and probably won't give it a second thought.  We see it fairly regularly on the forum - where even with some prompting by a solicitor during the conveyancing process - people end up buying properties without a great deal of thought where the exact boundaries lie.

In some cases the boundary position is a practical problem - a fence which stops car doors opening, or prevents maintenance of the structure.  In the OP's case the boundary feature has been removed and the front gardens made 'open plan' (AIUI).  The only time the boundary will become a serious issue is if one or the other of the two want to put up a fence.

Thousands of new build properties have no boundary demarcation whatsoever at the front, not even between 'public' and 'private'.  If this was truly an issue these properties would be virtually unsalable.... the opposite appears to be the case.

melb said:

The neighbour's insistence that you do not erect a fence is also worrying - I would expect maybe a caravan to appear at some point in the future as otherwise why would they be intent on trying to pinch every last inch?

The neighbour isn't insisting the OP doesn't erect a fence - they are just saying the fence would need to be on the OP's land.

melb said:

They do sound like bullies - I suggest you do contact the police and inform them you are feeling intimidated by your neighbours, that they are causing damage to shared areas in your gardens and then put up some sort of barrier at the front and contact the police when they remove it. 

Contacting the Police would certainly raise the stakes, and would clearly be something that needed to be declared if the OP sells.

However, from what I understand there are no 'shared areas' involved.  The land is either the OP's or the neighbour's.  The neighbour is simply taking a liberty by using the OP's land as a convenient means of accessing their rear garden.  That could (and should) be stopped quite easily.

BrainDrained

melb said:

I have read all the comments but still cannot understand why your neighbour needs to go through your garden to access theirs at the back?

As for the people saying prospective buyers of your house won't be interested in where the boundary lies between the two driveways at the front, I beg to differ.  As someone who has had to endure a court case over exactly this situation this would immediately raise a red flag if there was no discernable boundary line.  The neighbour's insistence that you do not erect a fence is also worrying - I would expect maybe a caravan to appear at some point in the future as otherwise why would they be intent on trying to pinch every last inch?

They do sound like bullies - I suggest you do contact the police and inform them you are feeling intimidated by your neighbours, that they are causing damage to shared areas in your gardens and then put up some sort of barrier at the front and contact the police when they remove it.  In order to keep costs down in the back garden could you attach some trellising on top of the existing fence?

The access to their rear garden isn't as much of an issue as the actual boundary.  I'm quite prepared, as a gesture of good neighbourliness,  to allow (eg) their window cleaner access for example.  But I do need to reinforce the fact that this is a privilege not a right,  and in return I expect the issue of the boundary and fence at the front to be resolved. 

Putting trellis on top of the existing fence isn't an option. His fence,  so legally I have no right to touch it.  I would expect he would remove it anyway,  so it's not worth the effort.  I'm also wary about erecting anything that looks permanent on my side as he might then claim that's the boundary line. It's not going to be easy to defend that unless we've got a formal boundary agreement.  I think suggesting a boundary surveyor is probably the only way forward at the moment. I don't suppose the insurance would cover that.

The police in this area are pretty pathetic and I wouldn't hold out much hope of them turning up when needed. 

I'd like to see him try to park a caravan on his drive! There's a restrictive covenant prohibiting that,  and I know the local authority do enforce it. 

Section62

BrainDrained said:

I'm also wary about erecting anything that looks permanent on my side as he might then claim that's the boundary line. It's not going to be easy to defend that unless we've got a formal boundary agreement.

The way round that (from the POV of blocking their use of the access) is to put your 'fence' in a position where it is clearly not intended to be a boundary marker.

I was envisioning  a 'fence' - with a suitable lockable gate - in such a position that it prevents access to your back garden by anybody other than you.

With all the raids on sheds and break-ins via back doors, it is completely normal for people to want to improve the security of their back garden.  The fact this might inconvenience the neighbour is unfortunate, but that's life.

Bendy_House

Section62 said:

The neighbour isn't insisting the OP doesn't erect a fence - they are just saying the fence would need to be on the OP's land.

BrainDrained: "He has already told me I can't have a 2m hedge or fence along the back garden."

This neighb is OTT. A deluded, entitled bully. Call it whatever you will; this is a person who only sees things their way and expects 'rights' that simply do not exist. Give an inch, and youknow.

Good luck trying to sell the house with all the front and rear boundary issues hanging over you. You will either have to be evasive or actually misleading if you don't answer a straightforward question truthfully.

Or, you sort it decisively - a 2m (or 1.8m...) fence with internal-locking gate on your side at the back. (Photos of the existing boundary coupled with a letter to the neighb will set in stone the declaration of the existing, accepted boundary there.)

At the front, I'd first set up a CCTV camera - a self-contained unit with built-in SD card should do, but external recording is better - covering your property frontage, and then I'd put up whatever height fence I'd like along the drive - providing the deeds don't preclude this. If the neigh touches this fence, you DO call the police. They won't get involved in the actual boundary dispute, but they WILL (should) tell the neighb to not touch the fence again or else...

You may then need to get a surveyor to determine the boundaries as accurately as possible - and be prepared for them to say things you don't want to hear (from your description).

But, once sorted, you can then sell stating "Yes, there was a dispute over the boundary, but that's been fully resolved - here's the report."

I'd personally MUCH rather that than move in next to this neighb and slowly find out the can of worms awaiting me.

Section62

Bendy_House said:

Section62 said:

melb said:

The neighbour's insistence that you do not erect a fence is also worrying - I would expect maybe a caravan to appear at some point in the future as otherwise why would they be intent on trying to pinch every last inch?

The neighbour isn't insisting the OP doesn't erect a fence - they are just saying the fence would need to be on the OP's land.

BrainDrained: "He has already told me I can't have a 2m hedge or fence along the back garden."

I'm fairly sure melb was referring to the front garden fence issue, as the neighbour trying to park a caravan in the back garden (with no vehicular access of their own) really would be quite a feat (possibly requiring a crane?).

Hence the relevant information from BrainDrained was -

BrainDrained said:

Unfortunately the idea of a replacement fence isn't workable.  I have already suggested it. Even offered to pay for it.  Neighbour says they want it covered in artificial grass (!) with no physical barrier,  because they need the extra space for opening car doors.
 
Almost their entire front garden is block paved and the width of it wasn't an issue for the previous owners.

I think their insistence that the boundary is along the edge of my drive is a way to prevent me erecting a fence....