Energy news in general

Gerry1

MattMattMattUK said:

EVs are cheaper to own and operate than ICE vehicles

Not yet unfortunately, at present full EVs are only equivalent to the dreaded Compact Fluorescent Lamp regarding their development.  Just as the CFL problems were solved by LED lamps, EVs will eventually become affordable and practical, at least for those with driveways, but that's still quite some time away.

At present EVs are significantly more expensive to buy, and don't forget to add on the cost of a 7kW charger.  They can be cheaper to run close to home, but that's no longer the case when outside your local area and you end up paying a whopping 95p/kWh at a public charger (sometimes with parking fees on top).  That's more than double the cost of petrol.

And of course, everyone forgets that cheap home electricity for EVs won't stay cheap for long.  Just as EVs were exempt from the London Congestion Charge only for a few years, the bait of cheap home charging won't last forever.  When we're all driving EVs their home electricity usage will be taxed just as heavily as petrol or diesel. 

Troytempest

I for one will be happy to carry on using a gas boiler and a non electric car.

Governments need to stop telling us what to do.  I imagine that most people would adopt these 'greener' alternatives when the technology, infrastructure and cost line up...

matt_drummer

Troytempest said:

I for one will be happy to carry on using a gas boiler and a non electric car.

Governments need to stop telling us what to do.  I imagine that most people would adopt these 'greener' alternatives when the technology, infrastructure and cost line up...

That is not how it works though.

Generally people aren't smart enough to do the right things, they need to be helped and then forced.

Electric cars and heat pumps are the way forward. They are not designed primarily to be cheaper, their main purpose is to be less polluting, particularly at the point of use.

Without encouragement from smarter people, very few people would change and we would be burning stuff until it either runs out or the world was destroyed, whichever came first.

mmmmikey

matt_drummer said:

Troytempest said:

I for one will be happy to carry on using a gas boiler and a non electric car.

Governments need to stop telling us what to do.  I imagine that most people would adopt these 'greener' alternatives when the technology, infrastructure and cost line up...

That is not how it works though.

Generally people aren't smart enough to do the right things, they need to be helped and then forced.

Electric cars and heat pumps are the way forward. They are not designed primarily to be cheaper, their main purpose is to be less polluting, particularly at the point of use.

Without encouragement from smarter people, very few people would change and we would be burning stuff until it either runs out or the world was destroyed, whichever came first.

Those kind of condescending comments, in my view, are about 100 years out of date and demonstrate an extraordinary arrogance.

matt_drummer

mmmmikey said:

matt_drummer said:

Troytempest said:

I for one will be happy to carry on using a gas boiler and a non electric car.

Governments need to stop telling us what to do.  I imagine that most people would adopt these 'greener' alternatives when the technology, infrastructure and cost line up...

That is not how it works though.

Generally people aren't smart enough to do the right things, they need to be helped and then forced.

Electric cars and heat pumps are the way forward. They are not designed primarily to be cheaper, their main purpose is to be less polluting, particularly at the point of use.

Without encouragement from smarter people, very few people would change and we would be burning stuff until it either runs out or the world was destroyed, whichever came first.

Those kind of condescending comments, in my view, are about 100 years out of date and demonstrate an extraordinary arrogance.

How do you plan to get people to stop burning stuff then?

Please don't say by making it cheaper.

Life was cheaper without mobile telephones but everybody has one. A horse was cheaper than a car. A bus is cheaper than a car. And so on.

EVs and heat pumps are the cost of making life nicer, even if they cost a little more.

debitcardmayhem

One point I would make, all well and good Lab/Tories/Greens etc make the UK net zero, but what can they do about Trump,Xi and Putin. Sfa

matt_drummer

debitcardmayhem said:

One point I would make, all well and good Lab/Tories/Greens etc make the UK net zero, but what can they do about Trump,Xi and Putin. Sfa

You have to start somewhere, somebody always has to be first.

I think China are doing lots?

In any case, if the places we live aren't filled with fumes from fossil fuels burning at least where we all live will be nicer despite what anybody else does.

mmmmikey

matt_drummer said:

mmmmikey said:

matt_drummer said:

Troytempest said:

I for one will be happy to carry on using a gas boiler and a non electric car.

Governments need to stop telling us what to do.  I imagine that most people would adopt these 'greener' alternatives when the technology, infrastructure and cost line up...

That is not how it works though.

Generally people aren't smart enough to do the right things, they need to be helped and then forced.

Electric cars and heat pumps are the way forward. They are not designed primarily to be cheaper, their main purpose is to be less polluting, particularly at the point of use.

Without encouragement from smarter people, very few people would change and we would be burning stuff until it either runs out or the world was destroyed, whichever came first.

Those kind of condescending comments, in my view, are about 100 years out of date and demonstrate an extraordinary arrogance.

How do you plan to get people to stop burning stuff then?

Please don't say by making it cheaper.

Life was cheaper without mobile telephones but everybody has one.

EVs and heat pumps are the cost of making life nicer, even if they cost a little more.

By being reallistic, supporting the government agenda and focusing on the major issues one step at a time.

I think it's naive and overly simplistic to suggest that EVs and heat pumps only cost "a little more". 

Although I am living in my own property and consider myself comfortable financially, I couldn't come close to the cost of buying and running an EV to replace my 10 year old diesel, and it will be a long time before there is an adequate supply of EVs on the second hand market that would make an EV a realistic alternative. And as a relatively low mileage user, it's doubtful that there would be a significant environmental benefit either in my case, once you factor in the environmental impact of manufacturing new cars vs. running old ones longer. Do I think EVs are a good idea and the way of the future? Yes. Do I think that we are ready to price older vehicles off the road? No.

And as far as heat pumps are concerned, I'd agree that in the long term they only cost a little bit more. But you need to have the means to make the investment and we have become an increasingly divided society with huge disparities in wealth. In reality, few people without access to the bank of Mum and Dad can afford to buy houses, let alone heat pumps. So I would favour an extension of the government grant scheme to increase their accessibility, funded by increase in the higher income tax bands and inheritance tax.

I'd focus on fundamental issues (like increasing the housing stock to reduce property prices and rents) in parallel with the green initiatives with the aim being to close income gaps and put more people into the bracket where EVs, Heat Pumps and the like are reallistic options.

There are no quick solutions, it's going to be a long, hard grind to rebuild the British economy and get to where we can afford to be where we want to be on environmental issues. But it's all do-able and personally I'm hugely relieved that we at last have a government that is willing to make unpopular choices to move things forward.

QrizB

Don't make me tap the sign.

matt_drummer

I do agree, EVs are not perfect for everybody yet, but not for the reasons often quoted.

Stopping for a bit on a long journey isn't a problem, in fact it's a good idea and most people do anyway.

EVs are not necessarily expensive, there are plenty of new EVs that cost less than the majority of new ice cars. They may not be BMW's or Mercedes, but they are there.

And for people who don't buy new cars, buy used just like they do now.

A used ev is not the issue many people fear. I bought one for my wife and it was the same price as the same age and mileage petrol version.

For people that drive around in cars over 10 years old, they'll have to wait a bit, and then they can buy 10 year old evs for peanuts, just like they buy their cars now.

Most people don't drive very far every day, range is not an issue.

Charging is a problem for a lot of people and it will need to be resolved.

But nobody is taking away older ice vehicles, it is just at some point, no new ones will be made.

So, somebody's shiny new ice car today will be somebody else's shiny `new' used car in ten to fifteen years time.

Heat pumps work, and they work really well, people just need educating.

The initial installation costs are higher in many cases, but you are not comparing like with like.

Once installed, replacement is easy and pretty much a diy job taking less than half a day.

It will all come, but there will always be a large number of people that resist change.

And for those people, a target needs to be set, otherwise they will just carry on as normal, burning stuff.

It can't carry on forever, it has to stop at some point.