Energy news in general

Auti

For me I think a good start would be mandatory heat pump/solar panels and ev charging point on every new home built. I am happy to install sustainable energy but finances even with grants and living in Victorian terrace in conservation area put it totally out of reach and electric panel heaters are prohibitively expensive to consider as a method of heating the house. I am not resisting - I physically cannot afford it (or allowed it through conservation or planning rules)

victor2

DD lives in a new-build flat in London. Electric only, communal hot water/heating supply. Obviously impossible to install solar panels and very difficult to park anywhere in the vicinity, never mind park at an EV charging point.

matt_drummer

victor2 said:

DD lives in a new-build flat in London. Electric only, communal hot water/heating supply. Obviously impossible to install solar panels and very difficult to park anywhere in the vicinity, never mind park at an EV charging point.

Yes, difficult.

Perhaps London is one of those places where you just don't need to own a car?

Rent one when you need to go somewhere?

My wife is from Riga, when we are there it is so good, no car needed as the public transport is awesome.

mmmmikey

matt_drummer said:

victor2 said:

DD lives in a new-build flat in London. Electric only, communal hot water/heating supply. Obviously impossible to install solar panels and very difficult to park anywhere in the vicinity, never mind park at an EV charging point.

Yes, difficult.

Perhaps London is one of those places where you just don't need to own a car?

Rent one when you need to go somewhere?

My wife is from Riga, when we are there it is so good, no car needed as the public transport is awesome.

I suspect we agree on far more than we disagree on.

As far as cars are concerned, we seem to have built lifestyles that assumes or even pretty much necessitates car ownership. We commute long distances to work, not because we enjoy it but because we can. We shop in supermarkets and out of town retail parks and complain about the decline of the town centre and lack of village shops. We drive our children to schools outside the area we live in, with all the impacts that has on social cohesion. There's no quick fix to these things but cultural and lifestyle changes could improve the quality of life as well as dramatically reducing the emissions associated with the motor car.

MattMattMattUK

Gerry1 said:

MattMattMattUK said:

EVs are cheaper to own and operate than ICE vehicles

Not yet unfortunately, at present full EVs are only equivalent to the dreaded Compact Fluorescent Lamp regarding their development.  Just as the CFL problems were solved by LED lamps, EVs will eventually become affordable and practical, at least for those with driveways, but that's still quite some time away.

Yes now they are already cheaper, making false analogies does not benefit your cause.

Gerry1 said:

and don't forget to add on the cost of a 7kW charger. 

Most people do not need a 7kW charger, for those that do they can be installed for around £500 by a local electrician, expect to pay more if you ask a large national company to do it, the same with anything.

Gerry1 said:

At present EVs are significantly more expensive to buy, 

Not really, something in the same segment as a Model 3, the Audi, BMW or Mercedes EVs are pretty similar costs. There is a difference at the smaller end of the market, but the difference in price between EVs and ICEs in the second hand market is largely due to EVs being newer.

Gerry1 said:
They can be cheaper to run close to home, 

Based on home charging EVs cost about 1.6-1.7p per mile in the "fuel" cost, where as an ICE vehicle will be in the 16-25p range.

Gerry1 said:
but that's no longer the case when outside your local area and you end up paying a whopping 95p/kWh at a public charger (sometimes with parking fees on top).  That's more than double the cost of petrol.

Public EV chargers for high speed chargers are in the 65-75p range, for slow chargers they are often around 30p, that works out at 16.0-18.5p per mile which is at the cheaper end of ICE vehicles, on a 7kW public charger they are around 7.5p per mile, less than half the best ICE vehicles. EVs are also far cheaper to service, usually around £200, they generally have less go wrong because there are far fewer moving parts and so the TCO is lower.

Gerry1 said:

And of course, everyone forgets that cheap home electricity for EVs won't stay cheap for long.  Just as EVs were exempt from the London Congestion Charge only for a few years, the bait of cheap home charging won't last forever.  When we're all driving EVs their home electricity usage will be taxed just as heavily as petrol or diesel. 

It may not remain as cheap as the surplus of excess night generation decreases, but even if it all rises to standard rate it is still cheaper per mile than ICE vehicles. It is highly unlike that home electricity will be taxed at the same level as petrol and diesel and to claim so is misinformation and scaremongering. Far more likely is some form of pay by the mile scheme, or just funding road upkeep through general taxation. Either way it is a decade or more away before any substantive changes will take place with the ban on new ICE vehicles. 

matt_drummer

I think you will find that we agree on pretty much everything

Cars are horrible things, go and stand by the side of a road, listen to them and smell them.

The occupants quite happy in their climate controlled cocoon.

I like cars, don't get me wrong, used to race them, but they are horrible and don't improve our lives in ways that matter.

It is too cheap, travelling 100 miles to work is normal for lots of people.

Going backwards and forwards to shops multiple times a day is too easy and too cheap.

If it wasn't cheap, people would be more careful about the number of needless journeys they make.

Quite a generalisation, but I think most of us know it is true.

But, I am not holier than thou, I have been guilty too.

It just can't carry on in the same way, for me anyway.

I hope the kids of today will see sense.

Chrysalis

QrizB said:

Don't make me tap the sign.

Thank you, just deleted my reply to matt I made a minute ago.  Although this really means no governments decision or party policies should be mentioned here as its a political decision.

mmmmikey

Chrysalis said:

QrizB said:

Don't make me tap the sign.

Thank you, just deleted my reply to matt I made a minute ago.  Although this really means no governments decision or party policies should be mentioned here as its a political decision.

Yes, I've always taken that message to refer to party politics. The energy market is regulated which makes discussion about it inherently political. Any debate about WFA or the reallocation of the costs associated with standing charges is political pure and simple. 

This is a thread about energy news and in this case the energy news being discussed is political. So as long as we don't start campaigning for political parties and don't get carried away, there's nothing here that strikes me as being adrift from the spirit of the forum rules.

Nobody is obliged to read or participate in any particular post and can choose not to engage in a discussion that becomes political. I think it's pretty clear that the immediate discussion is both relevant to the energy market and political in nature. I don't see an issue with that, anyone who chooses to can simply stop reading. The important thing in my view is that we don't start taking chunks out of each other and don't allow politics to enter the discussion where that is inappropriate.

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

matt_drummer said:

Electric cars and heat pumps are the way forward. They are not designed primarily to be cheaper, their main purpose is to be less polluting, particularly at the point of use.

As long as the electricity doesn't come from burning ancient forests that is:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-68381160

I appreciate you added at point of use but on the whole if our energy supply is tainted by such activity it kind of defeats some of the positive being done and when the government is handing out 6 billion quid in subsidies you'd think there would be greater scrutiny over such activity.

matt_drummer

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

matt_drummer said:

Electric cars and heat pumps are the way forward. They are not designed primarily to be cheaper, their main purpose is to be less polluting, particularly at the point of use.

As long as the electricity doesn't come from burning ancient forests that is:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-68381160

I appreciate you added at point of use but on the whole if our energy supply is tainted by such activity it kind of defeats some of the positive being done and when the government is handing out 6 billion quid in subsidies you'd think there would be greater scrutiny over such activity.

That is all beyond me and any control I might have.

I am just in favor of clean transport and heating that is efficient and doesn't cost too much more, but hopefully less than what we currently do.

EVs and a heat pump work very well for me and they can for lots of people.

Cleaner air and less noise where we live is all I care about, and can do anything about. 

The rest of it, smarter people than me have to work out.


Edited

I just read the article.

I work in the timber industry and have some knowledge of forestry matters, actually some in Canada.

Cutting down trees isn't always bad, it is actually necessary and part of good forestry management.

Perhaps the most concerning part, is producing wood pellets in North America and then transporting them to the UK to burn.

It's quite a long way to come!