Bought a £10 ticket for 12 hours, still slapped £100 charge by One Parking Solutions at Llangrannog

zhonguonuren

Highview and Apcoa

D_P_Dance

1. Well I am sure that all the judges I have encountered would.  

D_P_Dance

I agree with zhong,   I have sued Fiat, Amazon, two tenants, an estate agent, an electric company and threatened several others, all have, (eventually), recognised  seen the reasonableness of my argument.  Take a punt.

Mildly_Miffed

I'm another Llangrannog victim.

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6275173/paid-displayed-but-only-partial-plate

cryingoutloud

Sad to report that POPLA also rejected my appeal. Their ground for rejection was that I should have ensured I undersood the terms of the car park from the numerous signs placed around the car park. They also rejected my point that the the machine had also incorrectly terminated my session at 20:00 hours because the tariff changed. I quote one key response to my claim that the 10 minute grace period was added belatedly on a sticker:

While I agree the font of the grace period is smaller than the main text, this is most likely due to the text being added at a later date on a sticker and to ensure it will fit on the sign . Despite the late addition, the signage in place are clear and written in plain English which explains the terms of use of the car park, as required by the BPA Code of Practise. The sign is also in line with the size requirement stated in the BPA Code of Practice and referenced above. There is no standard format or layout of signs and therefore operators do not need to display the PCN charge or grace period similarly to Parking Eye signs in the Beavis case. It is the responsibility of the motorist to seek the terms and conditions of the parking site and to determine whether they are able to meet them. If the appellant was unable to meet the requirements of the car park, the appellant should have arranged for alternative parking.

Furthermore, the appellant commented on the operator’s evidence, referring to the sitemap stating that the map does not specify where Terms and Conditions signs are located and that the photo of the signs in the entrance is not up to date and shows one less sign. The appellant has stated the only sign that states 10 minutes grace period is a sticker placed on a sign that was on a green fence which appears to be on the right side of the car park, whereas the appellant had parked on the left side of the car park. Additionally the appellant believes there are no evidence of where their car was parked and where the sign stating the grace period on a sticker in small font was and whether the sticker was there on the day of the parking event.

And I find the below quite surprising that the onus was on me to show that there weren't signs on the day in all parts of the car park, when I have shown to POPLA that the operator's evidence does not prove the said T&Cs with the 10 minute grace period are only proven in just 1 place in the car park:

Photos provided of the car park show the terms and conditions on both sides of the car park and as I have already established, there is no requirement for the terms and conditions to be placed in specific locations. But instead it is for the operator to place throughout the site which has been evidenced by the photos provided. The appellant has raised concerned about whether information on grace period was present on the day of the parking event, however has not provided evidence to support this. As I have not been provided evidence to support this concern, I do not doubt that the information was not present on the day of the parking event.

Anyway, could someone clarify whether I should wait for the operator to write to me with a demand for payment or according to the POPLA steps to pay with 28 days or write to them myself if I am not planning to pay them?

Some people have previously advised that paying them and emailing them that I am doing it in duress and then raising a moneyclaim is an option. I like that as at least that way I can limit my losses to £100. However, I may never see my money. Others have assured me that the chances of losing a claim from the operator in court are very low. But if I lose I can't understand if the loses are limited or not and why CCJ's or debt collectors traps are not possible.

In which situation can I choose which court my claim is heard - when I pay and claim back or what I am being asked to pay by the operator in a claim by them?

Redx

I cannot tell you what I don't know , but this is what I think

Normally you would ignore all letters except an official LBC or a court claim pack from the CCBC in Northampton , so no you don't write to them or pay the £100 either

MCOL expenses or charges are limited to say £50 legal fees and CCBC fee plus court hearing fee , typically £25 each , but may have gone up recently , plus the £100 , so typically about £200 in total for a loss over a £100 PCN in court

If you lose in court , pay up promptly , in full , usually within 30 days , to stop a CCJ being recorded , it's non payment in full within the first 30 days that triggers the CCJ to be recorded , so why wouldn't you pay ??

It's not possible if you obey the court orders , so think of a CCJ being contempt of court and your punishment for the non payment

If you are the defendant , you can choose your own local civil court , presumably if they are defending a Court claim , maybe they can too. ?

cryingoutloud

Redx said:

I cannot tell you what I don't know , but this is what I think

Normally you would ignore all letters except an official LBC or a court claim pack from the CCBC in Northampton , so no you don't write to them or pay the £100 either

MCOL expenses or charges are limited to say £50 legal fees and CCBC fee plus court hearing fee , typically £25 each , but may have gone up recently , plus the £100 , so typically about £200 in total for a loss over a £100 PCN in court

If you lose in court , pay up promptly , in full , usually within 30 days , to stop a CCJ being recorded , it's non payment in full within the first 30 days that triggers the CCJ to be recorded , so why wouldn't you pay ??

It's not possible if you obey the court orders , so think of a CCJ being contempt of court an your punishment for the non payment

If you are the defendant , you can choose your own local civil court , presumably if they are defending a Court claim , maybe they can too. ?

Thanks @Redx. I've only sent snippets of the POPLA response. Essentially they were saying the signs do comply with BPA guidelines and since I haven't disputed that 10 minutes grace wasn't enough but instead that that I wasn't able to find that key piece of term when I parked and thus took 22 minutes to pay for the session, they upheld the fine. The said about the Beavis v/s Private Eye case that though Beavis signs are much bigger than the BPA requirements, all operators and car parks don't have to be of the same kind as long as they comply with Beavis guidelines. What I don't understand is, where did the operator even show what the sign dimensions were for the T&Cs (45cm x 45cm). They never showed that in the evidence pack. They only sent photographs with no scales attached. It's unclear to me if I'll lose in court on similar grounds if they show that their signs were BPA compliant, ie 45 x 45 cms for T&C which I do think they may be, but it doesn't make it clear enough still.

Redx

It will never be clear until a new system is in place from next summer , hence why we want people to fill in the government consultation before Friday the 27th !! It needs proper regulation with proper trained adjudication , the present ombudsman service Popla is appalling compared to the older but experienced London Council's popla !!

As for your own case , there is a vast difference between an ombudsman service untrained secretary and a judge , the judge should have many , many years of experience and legal training behind them !!

We have seen judges dismiss claims that popla have upheld , so most of us here have no faith in Popla assessors and we have long campaigned for a better regulated system. So I wouldn't lose any sleep over a loss at Popla !!

It's also about how wordy those signs are , not just size , it's like reading war and peace !!

Beavis was Parking Eye , not private Eye ( a magazine by Ian hislop )

It's an invoice , not a fine !!

cryingoutloud

Coupon-mad said:

I think @ParkingMad has told you about the Government Consultation?  Please make sure you and your family do it before it closes!

I take it this is what you mean https://consult.communities.gov.uk/regeneration/further-technical-consultation-on-private-parking/ 

And while the debt collectors get involved before court action, isn't there a risk of it affecting my credit scores in anyway if there is a debt associated to me?

What about interest accruing on top of the charge itself? When will it start accruing - issuance of charge, failure of popla appeal or from the point when the judge finds in favour of the operator?

Coupon-mad

And while the debt collectors get involved before court action, isn't there a risk of it affecting my credit scores in anyway if there is a debt associated to me.

No. Obviously not before court.  There is no debt until a Judge says so and even if you lost in court you still don’t get a CCJ remaining if you then pay, not more than they are sending now.  No risk.

What about interest accruing on top of the charge itself? When will it start accruing - issuance of charge, failure of popla appeal or from the point when the judge finds in favour of the operator?

it’s only 8% and rarely awarded. It’s from about the issuance of charge but is nothing to worry about. 

Do the Consultation please, it’s so much more important right now than fretting about a court claim in the future that we win 99% of the time.