Employer forcing into office

sheramber

phillw said:

Thrugelmir said:
Employers are under no obligation to pander to personal preferences.

https://www.acas.org.uk/absence-from-work/fit-notes-and-proof-of-sickness

If the employee has a disability, by law the employer must consider making reasonable adjustments to help them return to work and carry out their job.

As there is still a pandemic on, then it does seem like they are being unreasonable.

acas or citizens advice would be a good start.

As there is still a pandemic on, then it does seem like they are being unreasonable.

 Britain is no longer in a pandemic, experts have said, as new data showed the vaccination programme is reducing symptomatic Covid infections by up to 90 per cent..

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/04/22/covid-pandemic-britain/

Thrugelmir

cannugec5 said:

I am astonished by how many people are so dismissive of a diagnosis of anxiety. Anxiety can be extremely debilitating. It is not irrational to be anxious about a real threat. If one has an existing anxiety disorder (and I’m not saying the OP has, I don’t know) a further threat will only exacerbate that. 

I'm not being dismissive. Employment relationships are ultimately two way.  If there's no business there will no job though. Employees individually have a choice to work elsewhere. Whereas the business can only focus on survival. 

justworriedabit

phillw said:

soolin said:
This training might be important , without it the OP might not even be allowed to continue (I am freelance but without my mandatory courses and certification I would not be eligible to undertake my work for instance). 

 

A friend of mine was told to attend a first aid course at the end of 2020, during the course he was asked to perform a resuscitation on a dummy. He tried to get out of it but was told that he would fail the course.

He of course caught covid and was unable to work for a month and then had long covid for several months.

Just because someone tells you training is necessary, doesn't mean you should do it if you are vulnerable.

As for irrational fear, people are still dying from covid.

Sorry to hear about that.

To dismiss ones fear as a couple of posters at least have done here is not correct and I hope the OP gets it all sorted to their satisfaction.

Too often the press has written off this virus too early and then it returns on an even bigger scale.

We all need to be careful even those that have had the vaccine and come winter, we will see a big spike for a few months but with everyones help/support, it will be nothing like what we have just been having.

Once the OP had investigated all of their options as per my and other posts here and the employer has given them alternatives or not with reasons for this, I hope its all good for OP and their family.

SpiderLegs

If the OP has an anxiety disorder then they may have had it before coronavirus. If that’s the case then I presume they used to head into work regularly, despite the numerous other potential trigger points that could exist in everyday life.

if this disorder has arisen since/because of coronavirus then as stated by @sheramber we are now at a point where effectively there is no pandemic. Where we are today is likely where we will be for the long term going forward.

If the OP is unable to cope in these circumstances then they need to evaluate whether they are capable of doing their job going forward or need to be signed off permanently.

The de rigeur ‘any reason to not go back to the office’ game (which I presume the OP is not playing) is going to put some participants in a very perilous employment position if they don’t start to get a grip.

justworriedabit

cannugec5 said:

I am astonished by how many people are so dismissive of a diagnosis of anxiety. Anxiety can be extremely debilitating. It is not irrational to be anxious about a real threat. If one has an existing anxiety disorder (and I’m not saying the OP has, I don’t know) a further threat will only exacerbate that. 

Some employers do enjoy using bully tactics, and like to see the vulnerable squirm. I quit my job (long before COVID) because of a culture of bullying within the system. My own health condition was used as a stick to beat with. In hindsight I should have fought back, but the risks were just not worth it. Since I left my employer has been the focus of a major investigation and has been reported in the media because of systematic bullying. 

So yes, I can imagine an employer encouraging one into work for a ‘training session’ that really isn’t all that important. I can imagine an employer that is simply trying to exert control and show domination when that has been ripped from them by a government who insisted in home working. 

Of course. The OP has to make their own judgement, with appropriate advice as to whether the risk of losing their job is more or less important than challenging the employer. 

I with them well. It really is not an easy situation to be in. 

I was shcked as well when I stated something like that.  You are spot on its not an easy situation for OP but they posted to read other peoples help and for some to dismiss their concerns like they have must have made the OP feel beaten. Thankfully, your, a few others and my post have encouraged the OP and IMO as stated by me earlier do the chats with the people I said and then speak with ACAS and OP has been warned at times they may say something one oes not want to hear but it is always unbiased help.

MattMattMattUK

justworriedabit said:

I've covered everyhting and I'm happy with that and you can disagree as that is your perogative.

I dont know how to mulit post like you but the last point I've highlighted, you are so wrong on every level.

I agree that it is your prerogative to disagree, but you seem to think that nearly everyone else is wrong and you are right, yet you make this claim based purely on emotion, not on rational argument or employment law.

justworriedabit said:

OP is not refusing to do their job, they are requesting to do it from home or at another date.

Yes they are refusing to do their job, their contract will state that their job is to be conducted at a location of employment, that will include training, they are refusing to attend, that is refusing to do their job.

justworriedabit said:

Employers has a duty of care towards all staff inc OP

They have a duty of care, they do not have to pander to every whim.

justworriedabit said:

Employers will need to demo they have made efforts to help OP and if they go down my route if not already done so, these others inc ACAS will ensure the OP rights are met and the employees is not being unreasonable.

The employer will need to demonstrate that the request was reasonable, "attend your place of employment, which is safe and which we have risk assessments to prove is safe" is not an unreasonable request, that is a proven point of law.

justworriedabit said:

A middle man lie ACAS often is helpful in many cases and I've, my co-workers have used them years ago when I allowed myself to be pushed around by those that thought they knew it all. Since the day I came across a good union rep, HR staff that were prepared to back what was right as well as a manager and with the help of ACAS and co-workers sharing my plight, I've never looked back.

ACAS can give advice, but they are reasonable, the issue is the OP's demands are unreasonable. ACAS can not and will not say that an employer should give an employee whatever they want, they will advise based on employment law, employment law, in this case, is on the side of the employer.

justworriedabit said:

Even at one of my previous employments when i was younger and did not have the assertiveness, willpower, the guts to stand up to a bullying management gang supported by a gang chums that drove people into neervous breakdowns, leaving and/or being sacked, I through support of two close co-workers found out that people at the top in the dept and their cronies were bullying not just me covertly but willfully undermining my good name/characters as well as to others. I was fobbed off when I was off sick for a few days and treated like a child when others took time off sick as it suited them -  re training I had A/L booked before this mandatory training came up and i was told rudely by my manager i'd had to can my A/L as I told them i was not going on hols away but spending time with OH but hoping to see family - I went to the unions, I went to HR, I went to another manager that liked me and I consulted my OH and ACAS and guess what, armed with the info, they set another training date for me.

I have worked for reasonable employers and unreasonable employers, I have worked with occupational health to assist people who needed reasonable adjustments. I have also worked with people who abused and/or attempted to abuse the system, people who wanted entirely unreasonable adjustments, people who abused the sickness system, tried to gain the reasonable adjustment system etc. The employer is required to be reasonable, but equally, so is the employee.

justworriedabit said:

Yes, employer has duty of care and yes, so does an employee but one  is feeling down and out, sadly some near the top of the food chain in various departments/works and their cronies will make your life miserable unless you make a stand.  I only made stands and even now I do butt I do my research, keep it politem offer flexibility and never lost a cause push come to shove.

The employer has a duty of care, they will have made adjustments to comply with the Covid Secure guidance, as well as updating many health and safety policies and a raft of risk assessments. After doing so they will have deemed it safe for employees to attend. The employee can challenge the risk assessment on reasonable, factual grounds or if the policy exists, but is not followed, what they can not do is choose to ignore the risk assessments and health and safety policies, that is breach of employment law. 

justworriedabit said:

I do not need thumbs up on my posts as IRL co=workers from my dept and others will often turn to advice from me and I always remind them that what they do is at their own risk and its easier said than done and when to let it slip even though it may hurt, but plan your battles fully armed and often those that are not appearing to be flexible become flexible.

I do not understand your point of thumbs up on posts, it is entirely irrelevant to the debate at hand. I am also asked for advice by friends and family, I give that based on factual information and employment law, not on emotion, because emotion will not keep you your job and will not win you an employment tribunal if it comes to that. When it comes to employment law I would always advice people to make sure that they are on the right side before starting the battle, many assume that they will win because that is what they want, rather than realising that they have to be on the correct side of the legal argument.

justworriedabit said:
btw - your are making a massive assumption re OP and their "irrational fear"  -  IMO, anyones "fear" is NEVER "irrational." to them.

You are wrong, many people realise that their fear is irrational, indeed there is a whole section, the true "phobias" which are irrational fear. People recognise that it is irrational to be scared of spiders, heights, daffodils etc. the same is true of people with anxiety disorders, they recognise that they are being irrational, they just do not know how to handle and deal with that emotion, or rationalise their way out of it.

MattMattMattUK

cannugec5 said:

I am astonished by how many people are so dismissive of a diagnosis of anxiety. Anxiety can be extremely debilitating. It is not irrational to be anxious about a real threat. If one has an existing anxiety disorder (and I’m not saying the OP has, I don’t know) a further threat will only exacerbate that. 

It is irrational to be anxious about a real threat if the assessment of the threat level and/or risk is wrong. I would be scared of an asteroid impacting the planet, if indeed one was on a collision course with the Earth, anxiety would be a pre-occupation with that impact event even when one was not occurring. The chances of it happening are very low, the risk of it happening with no warning is even less.

When it comes to Covid, the vulnerable have been vaccinated, many have been fully vaccinated, the infection rate is very low and those who are healthy have almost zero risk from Covid. So the risk of someone who is healthy, catching, then suffering severe effects from the virus is incredibly low, low enough that an anxiety about Covid is irrational. 

phillw

soolin said:

How terribly unlucky, and how unusual to be able to pinpoint the exact moment they were infected,I’m sure the tabloids would love that story! 

Apart from that trip he has had to be very careful due to his wife caring for her parents. So yeah, he can pinpoint it.

His boss also felt so bad for making him go on the course, that he covered all his shifts and he still got paid.

phillw

MattMattMattUK said:
When it comes to Covid, the vulnerable have been vaccinated, many have been fully vaccinated, the infection rate is very low and those who are healthy have almost zero risk from Covid. So the risk of someone who is healthy, catching, then suffering severe effects from the virus is incredibly low, low enough that an anxiety about Covid is irrational. 

If you're not allowed by law to hug someone from outside your household, then I'm not sure it's that irrational.

Another month or two and it's another story of course.

I'd like to know what training can be done face to face that would actually meet covid safe guidelines for the work place, which couldn't be performed easier on zoom.

If the employer is either skimping on covid safeness or going to extra effort to force people into the office, then I would argue on their reasonableness. The "effectively there is no pandemic" argument is not reasonable.

phillw

MattMattMattUK said:
ACAS can give advice, but they are reasonable, the issue is the OP's demands are unreasonable. ACAS can not and will not say that an employer should give an employee whatever they want, they will advise based on employment law, employment law, in this case, is on the side of the employer.

If ACAS are reasonable as you say, then it would seem better to talk to them than listen to what sounds quite prejudiced advice given on a forum.

I haven't seen anything that definitively shows whether the employer or employee is being reasonable in this case.