Elnur Gabarron Heaters

[Deleted User]

Hi - assuming the heaters are wired in correctly, for a two wire installation they will only ever charge from the off-peak supply (described as the "restricted" supply in the manual).

If you set the on and off times in P01 to P04 all to 00:00 the heaters will (a) only ever use off-peak electricity for storage, and (b) make maximum use of the off-peak supply available to you. Unlike older storage heaters, in normal use you don't really need to worry too much about over-charging the heaters (i.e. storing more heat than you need) because the insulation is so good that very little will leak out and it will just be there ready for when you need it. But if you do want to limit the amount of heat that is stored, there's a setting you can change (independently of the timings) to do this, so that, for example, the heaters only charge until there 60% full or whatever.

If you want to limit the charge time (for example if you have different off-peak rates and you only want to use the cheaper one) you can do this by setting the timers so that the heaters are only set to charge during the specific periods you want.

Probably the first thing to do is to make sure you know exactly how your tariff works in terms of rates and times, and make sure that the restricted / off-peak circuit is live only during cheap rate periods.

EDIT: I forgot to add the caveat saying that's the way that mine work and others I have come across

Scot_39

rglynt said:

Hi & thanks folks. 

They add:  "If you are on the Weathercall option it is recommended that the Input setting on your storage radiator is always at the highest setting". I take this to mean cranking up the input dial on the old SH these tariffs were designed for. On my new units the equivalent would, I guess, be to set the charge timings to the full 24 hours and surrender all control to SP. Which is plainly unacceptable.

Cheers R

Yes the old input thermostat max - which was the default setting recommended in old user manuals - and only to be wound down if house too warm (not so much concern about billing costs back then perhaps)  - on the presumption that the heaters would be sized for 7 or in old whitemeter days in SP case 8.5 hours charge for winter weather.

But if costs are a concern like they are for me - I run much lower - barely charging 3 hours per day for most of the winter. 3 o clock on input dial mild winter - 5 when really cold.

Enough to keep damp mould at bay and not be completely freezing - but I triple layer up top and double layer bottom to cope when sitting passively.  Not quite full hertslad - no skiing kit / down jackets etc - but more dressed for winter than many.

As you say the Elnurs are different beasts

a) capable of their own timings 

and 

b) if allow the adaptation via non zero balance their own charge regulation.

And more likely to hold a lower charge to later in the day rather than leaking a fair amount from overnight charge when often not desired leaving too little by evening if wind them down.

So I'd run the Elnur's as you see fit - and similarly adjust the inputs on any older - again as you see fit.

rglynt

Cheers folks.

So at my request the Weathercall option has been canned and I think I now, finally, have accurate "Control rate" time availability from SP which actually matches my observations - 22.45-06.15 & 13.30-14.30 - hence can set HHRs accordingly. Info apparently via "Meterflow", which I take to mean real time internal SP logs ?

With current weather & target temp settings ('working hours' prog, 16c day/ 18c eve) they seem to be taking +/- 60% of rated full charge to reach c175c core temp and still have plenty of warmth by my old geezer winter bedtime - 10pm give or take. so 6kWh apiece @20p. We'll see how their wee brains adapt as the temps drop. 

On tariffs & meter setup, they're basically saying all their sparkies are working 24/7 to replace dumb meters for the next year and imply that I can't switch to a regular "Economy X" tariff without a physical apparatus switch, which seems to imply that I'm stuck w/ C+WM for the foreseeable. 

At least I've some clarity on where I am right now. 

I think I've read elsewhere here that Octopus have successfully taken on SP customers with a similarly peculiar setup so I'll explore that route. 

R

QrizB

rglynt said:

.On tariffs & meter setup, they're basically saying all their sparkies are working 24/7 to replace dumb meters for the next year and imply that I can't switch to a regular "Economy X" tariff without a physical apparatus switch, which seems to imply that I'm stuck w/ C+WM for the foreseeable.

That's a bit weird.

You've already got a 5-port smart meter, so they should be able to switch you to any other tariff simply by sending out the settings over the air. There shouldn't be any need for a physical swap.

If you're happy with what you've got for now, stick with it but if you would prefer a different tariff you might want to press them on this?

Scot_39

@QrizB

My guess for the non E7 offering would be - their probably not set to take 3 readings for a standard economy 7 profile and add them.  Even if they did set the 5 port timings to E7

They have installed a five port twin element Aclara SGM 1422 - from their other thread - if Ive interpreted that corrected "Clara SGM 1422B"

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6635060/new-smart-meter-new-hhrs-old-3-rate-2-mpan-tariff-confusion

Comfort rate though does seem expensive - comparable to my E10 off peak rate in fact - and at least the Elnurs - if not the older heaters could benefit from E7's cheaper rates and - if sized correctly - last the day.  ITs not like the OPs 16 most of the day 18 for a few hours in evening is excessive heat demand.

So perhaps even the old ones would be fine.

But as they are having to wait - for meter fitter availability - lets see how comfort system works for them.

[Perhaps unlike the EDF thread by another forumite with same meter used to replace their RTS - SP seem to perhaps have been able to configure it to operate - with it's own comfort times -  given those times - I suspect distinct from the port 4 day / night split timing.  And last I read that EDF customers thread with the 1422 - there were 4 active registers / rates ? - as still not configured properly - months in - after a couple of changes.]

loftus

Hi, 

My father has just had one of these storage heaters installed to replace an older heater under a Home serve insurance policy. He is due to have one more installed next week asking with a Dimplex Quantum for upstairs.

I'm completely ignorant about these and I think the installer wasn't far above me in knowledge. The heater had just been connected to the Economy 7 electrical feed and not also to a permanent supply. Will it still function as a dumb heater or do we need them to come back and connect a permanent power supply as well. 

I hope this makes sense!

QrizB

loftus said:

Will it still function as a dumb heater ...

No. Without the electronics powered, it'll just be a useless room ornament.

loftus said:

 or do we need them to come back and connect a permanent power supply as well.

Yes.

WiserMiser

loftus said:

Will it still function as a dumb heater or do we need them to come back and connect a permanent power supply as well.

No, it won't work on just an E7 supply.  Ideally it needs a 24h supply as well.  A bodge is to wire and program the NSH so it works from a single 24h supply, but that's a very high risk strategy.

Firstly it's likely to baffle your sparkie, so get someone who really knows what he's doing.  Secondly, you have to know the exact times when your meter switches and the only way to do this is by observation: your sparkie won't be there around midnight.  Beware of the 'Split Shift', e.g. 2230-0030 and 0230-0730.

Get it wrong and you'll be charging at peak rate and it'll cost a fortune.  To be sure, make sure one E7 outlet has a neon indicator.

Scot_39

loftus said:

Hi, 

My father has just had one of these storage heaters installed to replace an older heater under a Home serve insurance policy. He is due to have one more installed next week asking with a Dimplex Quantum for upstairs.

I'm completely ignorant about these and I think the installer wasn't far above me in knowledge. The heater had just been connected to the Economy 7 electrical feed and not also to a permanent supply. Will it still function as a dumb heater or do we need them to come back and connect a permanent power supply as well. 

I hope this makes sense!

Install

Based on your description - were you present or is this just second hand - not impressed.

But I find it difficult to believe that would be the case from most heater - well reputable heater - suppliers / installers.

Whilst older manual NSH can operate with a single restricted feed - and that may be all that was present for the older models being upgraded - modern NSH cannot.

AS the regs would put it - they are not a "like for like" upgrade in terms of power needs - they need real electrical work from an experienced electrician.

And if done as reported - you have to wonder just how competent / experienced is the installer - if they think the Elnurs (and possibly the quantums in near future) can be wired to just a restricted say E7 feed.

AFAIK they can both be single wired - lesser modern lot 20 in both suppliers ranges cannot - but in both cases the single feed needs to be live 24/7.  But with single wired - comes issues with device timers set to synchronise charging with the meter off peak time periods on E7 or a n other tariff.

So unless they modified the CU to drive the old restricted E7 direct spurs - to be driven 24/7 live - then again - from everything Ive read for either brand - you have a problem on your hands - and basically AFAIK - no operational heating most of the day.  Nothing to drive say the fan that circulates heat out of both models - outside off peak period.

See the wiring requirements for the relative manufacturers instructions here - mote not necessarily the absolute latest manuals - so willing to be proven wrong.

https://www.dimplex.co.uk/sites/g/files/emiian551/files/2024-03/Quantum G9 Installation User Instructions - Issue 2.pdf

https://elnur.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/03/Elnur-HHR-Installer-Guide.pdf

Personally - if they have done exactly as you have described - I would be wary of using the same person - and demand they supply (the firm you are dealing with) - supply a more experienced installer - one familiar with the devices - or not to be harsh - even one who can take time to read and understand an installation manual properly.  

And another concern here - is it isn't just the wiring - but the basic installation / user programming parameter configuration of the devices they should be helping your father with (*).

However - it might be that they have done work - e.g. in the CU - that your father may have missed.

Mixing Brands

Also - as these devices are set differently (*) - I'd strongly object to them mixing the brands - which is only going to mean your father having to learn how to program / set / adjust - two completely different controllers - with different terminology and different heating modes available.

They are more set and forget than old NSH (less need to tweak every time weather changes like older models) - but they need to be set properly - or heating bills will be higher than necessary.  As both can fall back on day time peak rate electricity to some degree in different ways - which is not ideal. 

There are users here with both types - Dimplex Quantum can handle users setting 4 off peak periods per day vs Elnurs 2 - in single wired modes - but for bog standard solid block 7 hours E7 - either should be fine.

In single wired mode - to live not restricted - both have charge time settings that will have to match off peak tariff times (*) - in summer (DST) and winter (GMT) - so need to be careful on how the tariff operates on the meter - and how the devices handle the +1 hr for DST on their programmers (iirc Elnurs ignore by default - quantums ?).

(*) And by that I dont mean some call centre operatives guess - but your fathers actual meters set times - which could be out by 1/2 an hour - set in smart or digital meters - even if the customer services rep gets the nominal core times set.

So assuming say E7 - and even if nominal say matches the reps version - e.g. they said 00:30 to 07:30 - there is a per meter offset - 0-30min on digital / modern smart meters - so if set to 15 mins on your fathers meter - that would mean the true off peak times would be 00:45 to 07:45. 

In order to avoid problems with getting those charge times wrong - many prefer these units to be wired  (as older lot 20) - in dual wired mode.

Certainly on the Quantums - should just work and auto detect off peak restricted live in dual wired mode for  charging - but on the Elnurs may iirc have to tweak the default 00:00 to 07:00 single charge time settings from a user here's posts.