Elnur Gabarron Heaters

QrizB

wrf12345 said:

Set up correctly they appear slightly better than the ancient systems they replace ...

The leak less heat, use less electricity, need less manual intervention and are much better at maintaining a constant temperature. That's quite a big improvement over a "box of bricks" heater.

wrf12345 said:

... but don't justify the expense.

That's an opinion (and one that can be disputed) rather than a fact.

mmmmikey

wrf12345 said:

So a combination of manufacturer setting the defaults wrongly and the installers not taking the time to reset them to max out savings... or the government grant system not insisting on the foregoing. Set up correctly they appear slightly better than the ancient systems they replace but don't justify the expense.

That's not my experience - the Elnur HHR heaters I have are way more efficient than the old Creda / Dimplex heaters they replaced, using about half the energy for the desired heating effect. The reasons being that (a) they don't overheat the house in the morning (b) they "leak" far less heat out during the day (c) they are much better at controlling the output in the shoulder spring/autumn months when the requirement varies from day to day. 

As far as the settings are concerned, it's true that they need setting up correctly and this seems to cause a fair amount of confusion amongst users and installers alike - but that's true of lot's of things.

The key thing to understand here is that they work a bit like a table lamp with a switch underneath the bulb. If you leave the lamp switched on at the wall, you can switch it on and off at the lamp, and vice versa - i.e. if you leave it switched on at the lamp you can switch it on and off at the wall. What you can't do is switch it on at the lamp if it's turned off at the wall, or switch it on at the wall if it's turned off at the lamp.  

Two wire storage heaters work in much the same way. They can either be switched on and off by the electricity meter or by a timeswitch in the heater itself. So if you have a two wire heater, you need to set all the on and off times to 00:00 on the heater which has the effect of leaving the heaters switch permanently on and allowing the meter to switch the charging circuit on and off. If you set these yourself and get it wrong you prevent the meter from doing it's job properly. You don't need to set these to your Economy 7 times, or whatever, to match your meter.

You only need to set the times at the heater if you have a single wire installation.

This can take a bit of getting your head around (or was it just me ?) and I don't think the manual is particularly clear.

Scot_39

mmmmikey said:

wrf12345 said:

So a combination of manufacturer setting the defaults wrongly and the installers not taking the time to reset them to max out savings... or the government grant system not insisting on the foregoing. Set up correctly they appear slightly better than the ancient systems they replace but don't justify the expense.

That's not my experience - the Elnur HHR heaters I have are way more efficient than the old Creda / Dimplex heaters they replaced, using about half the energy for the desired heating effect. The reasons being that (a) they don't overheat the house in the morning (b) they "leak" far less heat out during the day (c) they are much better at controlling the output in the shoulder spring/autumn months when the requirement varies from day to day. 

As far as the settings are concerned, it's true that they need setting up correctly and this seems to cause a fair amount of confusion amongst users and installers alike - but that's true of lot's of things.

The key thing to understand here is that they work a bit like a table lamp with a switch underneath the bulb. If you leave the lamp switched on at the wall, you can switch it on and off at the lamp, and vice versa - i.e. if you leave it switched on at the lamp you can switch it on and off at the wall. What you can't do is switch it on at the lamp if it's turned off at the wall, or switch it on at the wall if it's turned off at the lamp.  

Two wire storage heaters work in much the same way. They can either be switched on and off by the electricity meter or by a timeswitch in the heater itself. So if you have a two wire heater, you need to set all the on and off times to 00:00 on the heater which has the effect of leaving the heaters switch permanently on and allowing the meter to switch the charging circuit on and off. If you set these yourself and get it wrong you prevent the meter from doing it's job properly. You don't need to set these to your Economy 7 times, or whatever, to match your meter.

You only need to set the times at the heater if you have a single wire installation.

This can take a bit of getting your head around (or was it just me ?) and I don't think the manual is particularly clear.

@mmmmikey

I thought the Elnur manual said you had to set timing parameters to match the e7 times even in dual wired.

From link above for ECombi

https://www.electricalworld.com/Images/Manuals/Elnur-HHR-User-Manual.pdf

pages 10/11 sections 3.8 lis /description and 3.9 default settings for them

And that they were shipped 0000 to 0700 on p01/02? By default.

Are you saying like tbe Quantums they are now shipped all 0000 and / or auto detect if set so ?

Makes some of your other osts re timing automation more sensibe if they did.   So happy to be proven wrong by an actual user.

Ive posted that interpretation a few times and really don't want to be doing so if misleading others if got that bit wrong as it's a key part of install.

mmmmikey

Scot_39 said:

mmmmikey said:

wrf12345 said:

So a combination of manufacturer setting the defaults wrongly and the installers not taking the time to reset them to max out savings... or the government grant system not insisting on the foregoing. Set up correctly they appear slightly better than the ancient systems they replace but don't justify the expense.

That's not my experience - the Elnur HHR heaters I have are way more efficient than the old Creda / Dimplex heaters they replaced, using about half the energy for the desired heating effect. The reasons being that (a) they don't overheat the house in the morning (b) they "leak" far less heat out during the day (c) they are much better at controlling the output in the shoulder spring/autumn months when the requirement varies from day to day. 

As far as the settings are concerned, it's true that they need setting up correctly and this seems to cause a fair amount of confusion amongst users and installers alike - but that's true of lot's of things.

The key thing to understand here is that they work a bit like a table lamp with a switch underneath the bulb. If you leave the lamp switched on at the wall, you can switch it on and off at the lamp, and vice versa - i.e. if you leave it switched on at the lamp you can switch it on and off at the wall. What you can't do is switch it on at the lamp if it's turned off at the wall, or switch it on at the wall if it's turned off at the lamp.  

Two wire storage heaters work in much the same way. They can either be switched on and off by the electricity meter or by a timeswitch in the heater itself. So if you have a two wire heater, you need to set all the on and off times to 00:00 on the heater which has the effect of leaving the heaters switch permanently on and allowing the meter to switch the charging circuit on and off. If you set these yourself and get it wrong you prevent the meter from doing it's job properly. You don't need to set these to your Economy 7 times, or whatever, to match your meter.

You only need to set the times at the heater if you have a single wire installation.

This can take a bit of getting your head around (or was it just me ?) and I don't think the manual is particularly clear.

@mmmmikey

I thought the Elnur manual said you had to set timing parameters to match the e7 times even in dual wired.

From link above for ECombi

https://www.electricalworld.com/Images/Manuals/Elnur-HHR-User-Manual.pdf

pages 10/11 sections 3.8 lis /description and 3.9 default settings for them

And that they were shipped 0000 to 0700 on p01/02? By default.

Are you saying like tbe Quantums they are now shipped all 0000 and / or auto detect if set so ?

Makes some of your other osts re timing automation more sensibe if they did.   So happy to be proven wrong by an actual user.

Ive posted that interpretation a few times and really don't want to be doing so if misleading others if got that bit wrong as it's a key part of install.

The manual you link to is, to use your word, subject to interpretation - and in my view is also quite misleading. It says you have to set the clock for the times set in P01 to P04 to work which is not the same as saying you have to set P01 to P04 to your off peak times. If you set the clock and the off peak times correctly it won't make a deal of difference - but it does lead to the potential issue for a two wire installation where you don't get the full benefit of your off peak hours and you have to scratch your head when the clocks change.

I only know this by spending lots of time experimenting with the different settings to establish exactly what they did. I'm certainly not claiming to have interpreted the manual any better. I am fairly confident that what I am saying is correct because other owners have posted questions around the time settings, but of course it's always possible that there are different versions of the firmware and/or manuals. I also went into "full geek" mode on this and made my own external smart controllers which allow me to control the output temperature using a remote thermostat and switch them on and off remotely - which is why I spent so much time fiddling with the settings (I needed to know exactly how they work).

rglynt

Just when I thought I couldn't get any more confused by these....

My setup since July  (I started a thread on this last week) is:

-New 5 tail Smart Meter

-New ECOHHR 20s

-Legacy Scottish Power 3-rate tariff - ComfortPlus White Meter - which <may> have the further complication of a "Weathercall" option which switches the Heating/DHW 3rd "Control" rate remotely according to forecast weather/temp. If so, Control rate availability is dynamic & out of my control, if not it's fixed (though unclear...).

I've started experimentally ramping up the HHR charge times to observe core/room temps, kWh/£ consumption &c. Presently they're getting 5 hrs charge, determined by the onboard timers.

From what you're saying, the meter signals & my time settings may be in conflict? eg the 'wall switch' may be off for some of the periods I've set the HHRs to charge? 

Getting clarity from SP is a non-starter, it took them a couple of months to even mention "Weathercall" and several weeks before they'd even acknowledge that the meter clock setting were initially haywire. 

Either way the 3-rate tariif seems pointlessly anachronistic with smart meter & programmable HHRs installed, so I'm trying to get shifted to a 2-rate Economy tariff. (The Control rate is actually 25% higher than my OP rate, so I'm not even charging at the cheapest rate at present). 

Supplemetary Q: what Core Temperatures are you observing on a fully charged unit? Mine seem to reach +/-155C after 5 hours and run out of juice by early/mid eve with an 18C target temp.

mmmmikey

rglynt said:

Just when I thought I couldn't get any more confused by these....

My setup since July  (I started a thread on this last week) is:

-New 5 tail Smart Meter

-New ECOHHR 20s

-Legacy Scottish Power 3-rate tariff - ComfortPlus White Meter - which <may> have the further complication of a "Weathercall" option which switches the Heating/DHW 3rd "Control" rate remotely according to forecast weather/temp. If so, Control rate availability is dynamic & out of my control, if not it's fixed (though unclear...).

I've started experimentally ramping up the HHR charge times to observe core/room temps, kWh/£ consumption &c. Presently they're getting 5 hrs charge, determined by the onboard timers.

From what you're saying, the meter signals & my time settings may be in conflict? eg the 'wall switch' may be off for some of the periods I've set the HHRs to charge? 

Getting clarity from SP is a non-starter, it took them a couple of months to even mention "Weathercall" and several weeks before they'd even acknowledge that the meter clock setting were initially haywire. 

Either way the 3-rate tariif seems pointlessly anachronistic with smart meter & programmable HHRs installed, so I'm trying to get shifted to a 2-rate Economy tariff. (The Control rate is actually 25% higher than my OP rate, so I'm not even charging at the cheapest rate at present). 

Supplemetary Q: what Core Temperatures are you observing on a fully charged unit? Mine seem to reach +/-155C after 5 hours and run out of juice by early/mid eve with an 18C target temp.

Yes - who would have thought it could be so complicated

To save a lengthy "if this then that" answer that goes through different permuations and combinations - how many cables go the storage heaters - one or two?

rglynt

Hi, 2 cables, Peak & OP fused switches w/ LEDs at each unit. OP supply (per LEDs) seems to be regular  - overnight & brief mid PM period - with no obvious change as temps have fallen, hence my skepticism about 'Weathercall', but unsure how I'd confirm that either way. Rgds R.

QrizB

rglynt said:

-New 5 tail Smart Meter

-New ECOHHR 20s

-Legacy Scottish Power 3-rate tariff - ComfortPlus White Meter - which <may> have the further complication of a "Weathercall" option which switches the Heating/DHW 3rd "Control" rate remotely according to forecast weather/temp. 

Exactly what model is your smart heater?

Do you still get billed at three different tariffs, or only two?

I don't know what info you can get from SP's website or app, but does it tell you your switching times?

Scot_39

rglynt said:

Hi, 2 cables, Peak & OP fused switches w/ LEDs at each unit. OP supply (per LEDs) seems to be regular  - overnight & brief mid PM period - with no obvious change as temps have fallen, hence my skepticism about 'Weathercall', but unsure how I'd confirm that either way. Rgds R.

As per the series of posts in another thread

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6635060/new-smart-meter-new-hhrs-old-3-rate-2-mpan-tariff-confusion

There is a whole set of old legacy Scottish Power legacy tariffs - 

https://www.scottishpower.co.uk/energy-efficiency/energy-efficiency-toolkit/electric-heating

There is a non weathercall version that has been changed from 8.5 hours overnight

"Comfort Plus White Meter"

 

"In recent winters the charge period has been split to provide 7:5hrs overnight and 1hr in the afternoon, between 12.30pm and 3.30pm."

I wonder for those getting their meters upgraded - whether those times are now the default offering in some way.  Or if they will in fact download new tariff and ALCS timing data sets - they already download tariffs quarterly to millions of SVT - so it could be an even more regular event.

Short of monitoring when they activate the power - either on meter Contactor 2 display - or your red leds on a restricted feed to one of your heaters.  You would have to ask SP how they intend to implement weathercall part of the functionality.

rglynt

Hi & thanks folks. 

Heaters are Elnur ECOHHR20s; 3 rates: Day, OP, Control; and not very clearly.

Per Scot_39's link, times are either:

<C+WM>: "In recent winters the charge period has been split to provide 7:5hrs overnight and 1hr in the afternoon, between 12.30pm and 3.30pm", or;

<C+WM w/ Weathercall>: "The actual charge period may therefore vary depending on the forecast."

They add:  "If you are on the Weathercall option it is recommended that the Input setting on your storage radiator is always at the highest setting". I take this to mean cranking up the input dial on the old SH these tariffs were designed for. On my new units the equivalent would, I guess, be to set the charge timings to the full 24 hours and surrender all control to SP. Which is plainly unacceptable.

Yesterday I set 2 units to charge 00:30 - 06:30, and have target heat settings at 18C and 16C. At 06.28 today the OP lights were off and the consumption @ remote monitor was 14.1kWh, which oddly took one unit to 151C core temp and the other to 187C. They're rated for a 12kWh full charge, so they don't seem to have been charging for 6hrs (unless the draw is very non linear, and every time I've checked 'live' they're drawing 1.9kW). So OP (actually 'Control') supply availability seems to be a/the constraint: either C+WM fixed OP timing is out of sync w/ my settings, or Weathercall is having the same effect dynamically. Either way getting onto a conventional 2 rate Economy tariff would seem simpler, more appropriate to a 'smart' setup, and almost certainly cheaper. 

I'm awaiting an SP reply to my latest email setting some of this out. They're pretty abysmal at this stuff if my recent experience is anything to go by.

Cheers R