What will happen to ICE Car values now that EV's are getting closer.

AdrianC

Herzlos said:

Grumpy_chap said:

Perhaps people can install a 3-phase diesel generator in the garden from which they can charge the EV quickly.😉😱

You joke, but you could presumably use a storage battery which would allow you to charge the storage battery at a fairly slow 2-3kw AC during the day and charge your car from that at a much higher DC rate. You'd only need to get to about 10kw to do it in the time provided. For bonus points you could even charge that storage battery from a solar panel.

I wonder why nobody's thought of that before?
https://www.tesla.com/en_gb/powerwall

(St Elon is not the only source - obvs... https://www.solarguide.co.uk/solar-batteries#/ )

DrEskimo

Petriix said:

Grumpy_chap said:

Petriix said:

Many people do have home 3 phase charging and, although most EVs can't utilise more than 7.2kW, lots can charge at a 11kW or higher. 

With single-phase power, the supply limit is around the 7 - 7.5 kW so overnight charging can only achieve around 80kWh.

I would like to know how many people do have 3 phase home charging.  I would have though it would be a very small minority, but you suggest it is "many people that do have home 3 phase charging."  Do you have a source for that?

I am not even sure that 3 phase is available to all domestic properties in the nearby DNO infrastructure.

If someone had three-phase, why would they cap at 11 kW?  Surely, the power can then be around 21kW.  That would allow an over night charge (11 hours) above 200 kWh, so at 4 miles / kWh could mean a range of 800 miles, which is more than enough for anyone between eats and sleeps.

I still feel the route to longer range is not simply bigger batteries but greater efficiency - if the driver behind that is limits imposed by electric charging infrastructure, all well and good.

some Renault Zoes and Teslas can use 22kW, most EVs can't.

All Zoe's charge at 22kW AC, since the first two generation Zoe's had no DC charger. Can be quite nice when the CCS at Ecotricity doesn't work, and there are free 22kW AC stalls with no fees nearby!

There are some 'quick charge' versions (earlier models called 'Intens') that can go the full 43kW on AC using the AC on rapid chargers. Although the real world difference is not much, given the peak output is only achieved in a narrow band of the charging cycle (about 20mins faster from 10-80%).

Of course the new generation now finally has CCS, but only capable of 50kW DC, so much the same as the quick charge AC in the previous generations (although perhaps better given some rapids are CCS only).

[Deleted User]

Making an argument against EV on the basis of really extreme high end users rather than the majority is not really great. The average commute in the UK (in 2019) was 23 mile round trip, just 14% did more than 42 miles. For the VAST majority an EV switch from ICE is not going to be an issue. 
Now, look at 2020, we've proved that people can work from home, that extensive commuting is not needed, by 2025 the majority of the UK should have access to 1Gbps fibre if Openreach keep at it, how many people will genuinely need to drive more than the EV range very day? Not that many - obviously there will be people who do, engineers, sales reps etc but realistically how many of you could work from home regularly even after Covid is done?
Tesla heavy use data is showing even after the expected battery life (in terms of age, recharges etc) the vast majority of batteries are still holding 90% charge or more

Grumpy_chap

Herzlos said:

Correct: on a domestic system you couldn't leave in the morning with a full battery, return home with it empty after a 13+ hour day and expect it to be fully charged in the morning. 

You're describing an absolutely inflexible worst case that doesn't apply to many people at all.

The constraints imposed by the single-phase power supply will be a genuine impact for households with more than one EV...

My "worst case" is actually my real case (up until lockdown).  January last year (2020) I was seriously making enquiries to go for an EV against my daily 140-mile round trip commute, so the questions I posed were very real.  (I admit this thread is the first time anyone put the idea out there of domestic three phase power and that would make it all much more comfortable if possible at home). 

I am absolutely converted and committed that my next car will be an EV - I have done hybrid and found it wholly unsatisfying for the long commute I did.  The only reason I have not pursued an EV on the driveway is because it would be just that - on the driveway - until such time as a "new normal" is established.  I have done less than 3k miles since the end of March - a massive change from 140 miles daily, 10k Miles in January - February - March 2020.  It would be absolute folly to spend money on a new car of any type with such a low mileage at present - in fact, with lockdown again, my car is back on SORN.

Petriix said:

I should have said *some* people have 3 phase, I don't know how many but most new homes have three phases to the property although often it's only one that is connected to the supply.

The charging rate from AC is limited by the vehicle's on board charger

I'm really not convinced that "most" new homes have 3-phase to the cut-out.  Certainly, that is not the case for the majority of existing housing infrastructure.  I am not even sure that there is 3-phase along all that many roads, let alone to individual properties.  I would be very happy if you can provide evidence to demonstrate that my understanding of the electrical supply infrastructure is incorrect.

The capacity of the on-board charger is very likely a chicken-and-egg scenario. If the majority of properties had 3-phase then you can bet your bottom dollar that EV's would be commonly equipped with chargers that can make full use of that opportunity.

Herzlos said:

you could presumably use a storage battery which would allow you to charge the storage battery at a fairly slow 2-3kw AC during the day and charge your car from that at a much higher DC rate. You'd only need to get to about 10kw to do it in the time provided. For bonus points you could even charge that storage battery from a solar panel.

I agree with this approach, particularly the solar route.  I have got so far as to have defined what a solar system would need to look like for my house.

Presumably, if charging a storage battery from mains to then charge the car overnight, the best approach is to charge the storage battery overnight (for grid load balancing), but that is the same time you are asleep and have the car at home in any case...

Herzlos

Grumpy_chap said:

Herzlos said:

Correct: on a domestic system you couldn't leave in the morning with a full battery, return home with it empty after a 13+ hour day and expect it to be fully charged in the morning. 

You're describing an absolutely inflexible worst case that doesn't apply to many people at all.

The constraints imposed by the single-phase power supply will be a genuine impact for households with more than one EV...

For most, even 2 EV users won't be taxing a domestic supply enough to cause problems. Make that a 3 or 4 car household and then it starts to get messy (in terms of draw and cable routing)!

Grumpy_chap said:

Presumably, if charging a storage battery from mains to then charge the car overnight, the best approach is to charge the storage battery overnight (for grid load balancing), but that is the same time you are asleep and have the car at home in any case...

For most cases, yes you'd want to charge it from solar during the day and the grid at night. For yours, you may want to start it charging from the grid during the day so that it's got enough charge available to get your car charged overnight. Even taking 20 of the 80kwh off of the grid charging would give you plenty time.

I certainly don't envy your 140 mile (round trip?) commute. I was doing about 90 mile round trip until Covid, and that was easily 1.5-2 hours each way depending on how fickle traffic was. Like you, my mileage has dropped to almost nothing which is annoying as I'd changed to a small, boring, efficient car for the longer commute.

Grumpy_chap

Yes, 140 miles round trip.  70 miles each way, 1 hour 10 minutes.
I even thought an EV might liven the journey slightly, depending on the choice between the eNiro or the model 3.

Ectophile

Grumpy_chap said:

I do feel that the vendors for EVs need to be far more honest about range and what you'd actually get in the worst conditions.  The alternative is disappointment so that drivers go to EV and then revert back to ICE - similar to my foray to hybrid.

They quote the official WLTP figures.  Manufacturers of petrol and diesel cars are similarly required to quote the official MPG (or l/100km) figures.

None of those figures is likely to be accurate for the average user.

Grumpy_chap

Ectophile said:

They quote the official WLTP figures.  Manufacturers of petrol and diesel cars are similarly required to quote the official MPG (or l/100km) figures.

None of those figures is likely to be accurate for the average user.

I understand.  However, over-optimistic MPG figures won't mean that I am unable to complete my journey because the range is too low.  The practical significance of the impact to the driver is far greater with the EV than the ICE.

DrEskimo

Grumpy_chap said:

Ectophile said:

They quote the official WLTP figures.  Manufacturers of petrol and diesel cars are similarly required to quote the official MPG (or l/100km) figures.

None of those figures is likely to be accurate for the average user.

I understand.  However, over-optimistic MPG figures won't mean that I am unable to complete my journey because the range is too low.  The practical significance of the impact to the driver is far greater with the EV than the ICE.

Yea I agree .WLTP did move towards making this more comparable to real world than NEDC though. For example these videos below ran the following cars from 100% till they actually died and the recorded range was the following proportion of the WLTP figure:

Video 1 
Mercedes EQC: 75% (194 miles)
Audi e-Tron: 81% (206 miles)
Nissan Leaf 62kWh: 87% (208 miles)
Jaguar i-Pace: 76% (223 miles)
Kia e-Niro: 90% (255 miles)
Tesla Model 3 LR: 78% (270 miles)

Video 2
Renault Zoe : 96% (229 miles)
Vauxhall Corsa-e: 83% (174 miles)
Volkswagen e-Up: 102% (162 miles)
Peugeot e-208: 74% (161 miles)
Mini Cooper SE: 106% (154 miles)
Honda e : 90% (113 miles)

I think a summer (say 25 degrees) and winter (say 0 degrees) would be useful too, as some EV's are more efficient in the cold (e.g. those with heat pumps). So you could do range in combined/motorway cycle for both summer and winter. I think that's what we see in the videos above, with video 1 in winter and video 2 in summer.

The problem is you will still likely have variation among cars, whatever test standard you do....

The bit that gets complicated is then accounting for charging speed.....

ElefantEd

An interesting development for anyone concerned that charging times make long journeys impractical:

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/jan/19/electric-car-batteries-race-ahead-with-five-minute-charging-times

Obviously some new infrastructure to support a higher current will be needed but that's a straightforward problem to solve.