Parking Fine in Edinburgh

Fruitcake

This is what the NEWBIES says.

Q - ''I'm in Scotland/NI, so is the advice different?''

YES. IF THE EVENT TOOK PLACE IN SCOTLAND OR NORTHERN IRELAND, WE SUGGEST YOU DO (ALWAYS!) COMPLAIN TO STORE MANAGEMENT IF YOUR PCN IS FROM A RETAIL PARK, AND SEND THE USUAL TEMPLATE APPEAL FOR YOUR CASE, NOT SAYING WHO WAS DRIVING. HOWEVER, DO NOT TRY POPLA BECAUSE POPLA (IN A CASE THAT TOOK PLACE OUTSIDE ENGLAND/WALE) WILL REQUIRE YOU TO STATE IF YOU WERE DRIVING OR NOT, AND THAT IS THE ONE THING NOT TO DISCLOSE.

This is mirrored by the advice already given. 

Plan A, complain to the landowner
Plan B, appeal using the template in blue text from the NEWBIES
Ignore if it isn't cancelled unless a real court claim arrives on the keeper's doormat.

The PPC will have great difficulty with this case because it occurred in Scotland, where Scottish laws apply. At the moment a keeper can be held liable in England and Wales, but not in Scotland (yet).

The driver is not involved and should sit on their hands in the corner and say nothing.

The person in charge of the car is the day-to-day keeper, so that person could appeal using their Scottish address. This will confuse the PPC further. Alternatively the registered keeper could appeal, pointing out that Scottish law applies so if the PPC did try court, it would have to be in Scotland using the Scottish Act of Sederunt (Simple Procedure).
Again this will cause the PPC more confusion.

It is not a fine.
There is no law in the UK that can force a keeper to name the driver.
A fake, unrecoverable amount has been added to the original PCN. This should also be pointed out to the PPC.
Debt collectors have absolutely no powers whatsoever anywhere in the UK, and can be ignored. The fourth post of the NEWBIES explains why it is safe to do so.

Unless a judge says the keeper is liable, they ain't liable. In which country would that judge make such a decision? How could a judge in an English or Welsh court make someone liable for an event that happened in a nation where a keeper cannot be liable?
How could a judge in a Scottish court make a keeper in England or Wales liable when there is no such law in Scotland allowing them to do so?

I suspect the PPC will send a few debt crawler letters then file this on the too-difficult pile. If it were me I would appeal as registered keeper, pointing out all the problems the PPC will have about jurisdiction and different laws in different nations, then sit tight and see what happens in the next six years, or is it five? Who will decide whether the Scottish law or English/Welsh law applies concerning alleged debts?

Coupon-mad

NEWBIES thread is pretty clear about Scotland.  Ignore the fake PCN but ALWAYS, ALWAYS COMPLAIN TO THE LANDOWNER.  

She is not 'guilty as charged' nor 'bang to rights' nor any other such phrase that assumes this is a real parking fine.

Until after the Transport Act is fully enacted in Scotland in 2021 (and only for parking events after that) there is no 'keeper liability' on their land.

JohnSwift10

From someone who lives in Scotland.
IGNORE! 
Do not even communicate with them.

Coupon-mad

JohnSwift10 said:

From someone who lives in Scotland.
IGNORE! 
Do not even communicate with them.

True, until the Transport Act is fully enacted because some idiots in Scotland actually decided to copy the (broken and anti-consumer) POFA 2012 Schedule 4 and bring 'keeper liability' North of the Border.  Stupid, stupid, stupid.  Here come the jumped up parking tickets and exaggerated court claims, Scotland:

https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/news/motoring-news/private-parking-firms-issue-15-new-tickets-every-minute-research-reveals/

In 2012 when E&W was stupid enough to give 'keeper liability' to the parking industry because the BPA pushed for it and provided false figures (as they admitted later) there were less than fifty court claims per annum about scam private parking tickets.

There are now around 110,000 court claims p.a. in E&W so good luck coping with that sort of exponential explosion and consumer attack, Scotland.

Essex_Jim

So much advice and many acronyms to understand. So please if I have mis-understood anything!
The parking location seems to be Student Accommodation. Event took place 16th November. Too late for Plan A? Happy to pursue as the keeper. At about forty days now.
The Parking Charge notice through the post DID NOT come from the parking company. Came from TNC Parking Services. Parking company P4Parking (UK). No photographic evidence. Invalid postcode quoted on the notice.

Readings the FAQ's, which are extremely detailed, I am tending to ignore the notice and do nothing. If it is pursued to a summons, if I have read and understood correctly I could simply pay then. Would that be correct?

My second thought would be to use Plan B. Appeal direct to P4Parking stating no photographic evidence, invalid post code, and as the keeper I was not driving the car in Edinburgh. Negative to that is I feel it gives the company my details, albeit via email.

Redx

its never , NEVER too late for plan A, not until the conclusion of any possible court case anyway , so you are completely wrong on that aspect

it wont be a summons , its either an MCOL in E+W or the simple procedures system if in Scotland , neither is a summons , its not a criminal matter !! so wrong on that count

as keeper you have no legal liability whatsoever, so why would anyone pay a charge if its not their legal obligation to do so, so wrong there too

you are being told to ignore it and complain to the landowner and to the BPA about the inflated charge on the NTK (well , by me certainly as that it was what I would do, plus I would definitely not pay a charge I do not owe)

Uptown_Boy

Uptown_Boy said:

As I said ... the OP has no liability whatsoever ... all the parking company can do is send "scary" letters (either from themselves or a litany of debt collector companies); they won't pursue it further than that.

Whether the OP's daughter has any liability for the charge is an entirely separate matter - perhaps she lives at that site? Or was visiting a resident? The specifics are very important and relevant - just because she had a PCN on her windscreen doesn't mean she has any liability. For example if she lives there then she may have an unfettered right to park per her lease/tenancy agreement and no private parking company could insert themselves into her legal lease/tenancy; i.e. they probably have no 3rd party rights to enforce PCNs on residents or authorised visitors.

I asked this in your other thread ... it wasn't answered. Did/does she have any connection to the address where she parked?

Uptown_Boy said:

Umkomaas said:

Just ignore this, but tell your daughter she needs to wise up, especially if she is using your car. If she parks in England or Wales so wantonly, you will be the one in the firing line, especially if you're wanting to protect the little angel. 👼 

A side note ... the above raises a question. Does she have her own insurance on the car but you are merely the registered keeper? (If she's a named driver on your insurance but is the main driver of the car then you may need to be careful - the insurance company may see this as "fronting").

I also asked this.

Essex_Jim

Uptown_Boy said:

Uptown_Boy said:

As I said ... the OP has no liability whatsoever ... all the parking company can do is send "scary" letters (either from themselves or a litany of debt collector companies); they won't pursue it further than that.

Whether the OP's daughter has any liability for the charge is an entirely separate matter - perhaps she lives at that site? Or was visiting a resident? The specifics are very important and relevant - just because she had a PCN on her windscreen doesn't mean she has any liability. For example if she lives there then she may have an unfettered right to park per her lease/tenancy agreement and no private parking company could insert themselves into her legal lease/tenancy; i.e. they probably have no 3rd party rights to enforce PCNs on residents or authorised visitors.

I asked this in your other thread ... it wasn't answered. Did/does she have any connection to the address where she parked?

Uptown_Boy said:

Umkomaas said:

Just ignore this, but tell your daughter she needs to wise up, especially if she is using your car. If she parks in England or Wales so wantonly, you will be the one in the firing line, especially if you're wanting to protect the little angel. 👼 

A side note ... the above raises a question. Does she have her own insurance on the car but you are merely the registered keeper? (If she's a named driver on your insurance but is the main driver of the car then you may need to be careful - the insurance company may see this as "fronting").

I also asked this.

Apologies for not replying on the other thread.
I asked this in your other thread ... it wasn't answered. Did/does she have any connection to the address where she parked? No
A side note ... the above raises a question. Does she have her own insurance on the car but you are merely the registered keeper? (If she's a named driver on your insurance but is the main driver of the car then you may need to be careful - the insurance company may see this as "fronting"). No. The Car is insured on a multicar policy. She is the lead driver (main driver) on that car and the car is 'kept' at her address in Glasgow.

Coupon-mad

Just ignore the letters.  This will not go to court because it is in Scotland and it's not worth their while if it was one PCN.

Things will be different when and if Scotland actually follow through their intention to include 'keeper liability' in the Transport Act.  Utter stupidity and very dangerous for Scottish people that MSPs voted to include copied wording from the broken and badly-drafted Schedule 4 of the POFA 2012.  One of the most anti-consumer, anti-fairness and common sense pieces of legislation out there and Scotland goes and adopts it.

Umkomaas

One of the most anti-consumer, anti-fairness and common sense pieces of legislation out there and Scotland goes and adopts it.

One you would have hoped Wee Knickerlah might have spotted - the new opportunity she is giving to predominantly Sassenach predators to prey on her people. 

Not perhaps as smart as some think!