BITCOIN

Malthusian

tranquility1 said:

Tesco are NOT liable for any losses that I may have by dealing with Coinbase. They specifically told me that on the phone. 

Tesco aren't liable. Taxpayers aren't liable. You aren't liable. Only I am liable.

That's not for Tesco to decide. Ultimately it's up to the FOS who would rule if Tesco refused to pay out and you complained.

If you want to verify what you are being told you can read the Authorised Push Payment Scam Code (Tesco Bank is not currently a signatory but it is standard practice for the FOS to consider industry-wide codes when deciding whether a company acted fairly and reasonably) and a few articles in the consumer press on APP victims who were refunded, or you can carry on unquestionably listening to people in call centres or people down the pub or some bro who told you Bitcoin would go to the moon or whomever you like.

Anyway, it's not in dispute that Tesco don't think they are liable for transferring money to one of the big unregulated crypto token sellers, otherwise they'd block the transfer entirely. What they are worried about is being held liable for transferring money on the random whim of one of their customers who had no idea what they were doing. Their policy is based on the idea that if they give the punter a day to think about it and they still tell them to make the transfer, this will shield them against any claim you didn't know what you were doing as they can say "you clearly meant to do this as we gave you a day to do some research and make sure you were certain". Plus lots of customers will never transfer money to a crypto platform in the first place as the ones acting on impulse will give up and forget about it.

Scottex99

Malthusian said:

tranquility1 said:

Tesco are NOT liable for any losses that I may have by dealing with Coinbase. They specifically told me that on the phone. 

Tesco aren't liable. Taxpayers aren't liable. You aren't liable. Only I am liable.

That's not for Tesco to decide. Ultimately it's up to the FOS who would rule if Tesco refused to pay out and you complained.

If you want to verify what you are being told you can read the Authorised Push Payment Scam Code (Tesco Bank is not currently a signatory but it is standard practice for the FOS to consider industry-wide codes when deciding whether a company acted fairly and reasonably) and a few articles in the consumer press on APP victims who were refunded, or you can carry on unquestionably listening to people in call centres or people down the pub or some bro who told you Bitcoin would go to the moon or whomever you like.

Anyway, it's not in dispute that Tesco don't think they are liable for transferring money to one of the big unregulated crypto token sellers, otherwise they'd block the transfer entirely. What they are worried about is being held liable for transferring money on the random whim of one of their customers who had no idea what they were doing. Their policy is based on the idea that if they give the punter a day to think about it and they still tell them to make the transfer, this will shield them against any claim you didn't know what you were doing as they can say "you clearly meant to do this as we gave you a day to do some research and make sure you were certain". Plus lots of customers will never transfer money to a crypto platform in the first place as the ones acting on impulse will give up and forget about it.

They could just have a pop up confirming the same, take 10 seconds to read and click. Or multiple choice questions like you have to answer when investing in Crowdcube etc.

”Are you aware that buying/investing in to crypto is high risk and the markets are extremely volatile?” Click yes, done.

Adyinvestment

Of course a lot of banks don't like crypto... why would they when a lot of what they offer can be done much quicker, easier and cheaper on blockchain?

Banks will adjust though, already 55 of the worlds top 100 banks have at least some involvement in crypto.

55% of the world’s top 100 banks reportedly have crypto and blockchain exposure (cointelegraph.com)

fwor

Adyinvestment said:

why would they when a lot of what they offer can be done much quicker, easier and cheaper on blockchain?

I've never seen anyone try to argue that crypto transactions are quicker, easier or cheaper. What makes you say that?

All of the cash transfers and payments that I do via my bank cost me nothing as individual transactions, and my overall banking service is free. My credit card payments actually pay me money, as I have a cashback card. I've never paid any fees to my credit card provider. And it's all managed online via my phone - can crypto transactions really be easier than that?

You say crypto transactions are cheaper than "free" - how much does a typical crypto transaction cost you then?

Scottex99

Try to wire JPY from a Bank in Tokyo to a bank in Brazil, then see how long it takes, how much it costs and if it can even be done.

Then do the exact same value of transfer via USDC and it'll land in 60 seconds from your wallet to mine

Adyinvestment

fwor said:

Adyinvestment said:

why would they when a lot of what they offer can be done much quicker, easier and cheaper on blockchain?

All of the cash transfers and payments that I do via my bank cost me nothing as individual transactions, and my overall banking service is free. My credit card payments actually pay me money, as I have a cashback card. I've never paid any fees to my credit card provider. And it's all managed online via my phone - can crypto transactions really be easier than that?

Going a little off topic to Bitcoin on its own.

To compare those 2 handpicked to your situation examples is probably a fraction of a fraction of a percent as to how crypto will be quicker, easier and cheaper for so many people around the world with future financial transactions, take a look at the below where you can see just some of the ways it will disrupt the current banking system.

blockchain-disrupting-banking

Lending, borrowing, mortgages, remittances, trade finance, securities, KYC, clearance, settlements...

And this is just in regards to banking which is just one part of what blockchain/crypto will eventually be used for.

Section62

tranquility1 said:

Tesco told me directly, over the phone, that they are NOT liable for my dealing with Coinbase.  They told me that they were following other banks and making harder to deal crypto as a matter of policy.

But I won't listen to Tesco Bank.  I'll instead take the word of Section62 who posts on chat forums.

Well it isn't unknown for posters on this 'chat' forum to occasionally be right and something a bank employee has said was wrong.

But that wasn't my point.

The point was that both the Tesco Bank employee and Malthusian could be right - because in the context of payments for gambling, or trading, or buying crypto, there are two separate meanings for 'losses'.

If the Tesco Bank employee was talking about scenarios in which the FOS are likely to side with the customer (e.g. APP fraud) then they were wrong. If the ombudsman decides Tesco are liable then that's about the long and short of it.

fwor

One of the characteristics of crypto shill threads is that eventually the shills start saying ridiculous things.

The last example I can think of was "the ultra-rich use crypto as a store of their wealth", which is plainly laughable.

And now crypto is "Quicker, easier and cheaper" than conventional bank transactions. But now Ady is rowing back, and what "can be done" is now what ~might~  happen.

In case you're in any doubt (from my obvious example) I'm talking about now - not at some undefined point in the future.

So how about an example: how long does my Bitcoin transaction take to get processed? Answer: nobody knows! There is no first-in-first out rule - in fact there is no rule at all. The length of time is purely down to whoever gets to process your transaction. If they are busy, it could be slow. If lots of people pay more for their transaction, they jump the queue ahead of you. How is that "quicker"? It cannot be described as in any way better than the current banking system.

And before you say "Ah yes, but that's just Bitcoin" bear in mind that Bitcoin is what this thread is (supposedly) about.

fwor

Scottex99 said:

Try to wire JPY from a Bank in Tokyo to a bank in Brazil, then see how long it takes, how much it costs and if it can even be done.

Then do the exact same value of transfer via USDC and it'll land in 60 seconds from your wallet to mine

Ah Scottex - thanks, you're always ready with a nice real-world example that the average man in the street can relate to!

So... let's take the case where there's a problem, and the transfer does ~not~ land in 60 seconds. What would the average man in the street do about that? What regulator would look at the case and adjudicate for me, as a UK citizen, transferring Yen from Japan to Brazil? How would such a problem be resolved fairly?

Adyinvestment

fwor said:

One of the characteristics of crypto shill threads is that eventually the shills start saying ridiculous things.

The last example I can think of was "the ultra-rich use crypto as a store of their wealth", which is plainly laughable.

And now crypto is "Quicker, easier and cheaper" than conventional bank transactions. But now Ady is rowing back, and what "can be done" is now what ~might~  happen.

In case you're in any doubt (from my obvious example) I'm talking about now - not at some undefined point in the future.

So how about an example: how long does my Bitcoin transaction take to get processed? Answer: nobody knows! There is no first-in-first out rule - in fact there is no rule at all. The length of time is purely down to whoever gets to process your transaction. If they are busy, it could be slow. If lots of people pay more for their transaction, they jump the queue ahead of you. How is that "quicker"? It cannot be described as in any way better than the current banking system.

And before you say "Ah yes, but that's just Bitcoin" bear in mind that Bitcoin is what this thread is (supposedly) about.

6 month's ago I could have written this

I do agree that this is a Bitcoin thread and that other crypto's should have their own separate space.

I actually agree with you that Bitcoin itself is not going to solve/improve/disrupt the banking system, I am of the opinion that Bitcoin is the only sole store of digital value and will always need layer 2's for transactions etc.

Other crypto's will (in my opinion) be what eventually changes and improve everything else mentioned and should probably be discussed separately, I see these as utility tokens that similar to stocks should be valued accordingly - the vast majority would be massively overpriced as a stock and get their value through hyper speculation and FOMO frenzy, Bitcoin actually is very tame compared to many of these...this will not stop many of them going parabolic in price if we are indeed in a Bitcoin bull run and unfortunately many people will get recked. Alt coins in general (apart from a few blue chips) are still like the Wild West.