BITCOIN

tranquility1

Malthusian said:

tranquility1 said:

Tesco are not liable for any losses regarding crypto. And neither are you. I've no idea why you think you are?

Banks can be liable when someone transfers money to a scammer and then says they didn't mean to (push payment fraud refunds) or when they use a debit or credit card to pay someone for goods / services (including crypto) which they never receive (chargeback / section 75 refunds).

People who transfer money to unregulated get-rich-quick schemes are therefore a business risk for the bank. A big one like Coinbase is clearly less of a risk than, say, some website in the Marshall Islands, which is why Tesco Bank has given you a day to reconsider rather than blocking the transfer entirely, but still a risk which they want to limit. Blocking the transfer for a day doesn't stop people moving money to Coinbase but reduces the numbers who will do it (as those acting on impulse because they saw an advert on Facebook may give up and forget about it).

My main gripe is that I'm of the mind that I can spend money on whatever I like (as long as it's legal).

Yes you can. And banks can refuse to transfer people's deposits to whomever they like. If the customer objects they can withdraw their money as cash or transfer it elsewhere and do what they like with it. No-one is obliged to do business with anybody.

Scottex said:
This, 100%. Are they blocking money to gambling sites where you can rinse 2k on £50 spins on the slots in 5 minutes? No.
Or blocking money to eToro where you can open 10x longs on Oil prices? No.

Banks aren't potentially liable if they make transfers to gambling sites as there is no prospect of them being found liable for gambling losses. Same applies to regulated trading platforms.

From a UK perspective Coinbase is an unregulated investment platform.

The bank is not trying to stop you losing your money. They are trying to stop you losing their money by doing things that may make them liable.

Tesco are NOT liable for any losses that I may have by dealing with Coinbase. They specifically told me that on the phone. 

Tesco aren't liable. Taxpayers aren't liable. You aren't liable. Only I am liable.

Section62

tranquility1 said:

Tesco are NOT liable for any losses that I may have by dealing with Coinbase. They specifically told me that on the phone. 

Tesco aren't liable. Taxpayers aren't liable. You aren't liable. Only I am liable.

They won't be liable for 'losses' if you buy crypto in a genuine transaction and that crypto is worth less money when you want to sell it.

But Malthusian is correct that banks can be liable if you unwisely transfer money to a company which isn't what it appears to be, or to buy something which isn't what you think it is. Those are different types of 'losses'.

So banks have a responsibility (rightly or wrongly) to 'police' what people try to spend their money on.  If they fail to do so then other customers or shareholders will pick up the tab for someone else's unwise spending decisions.  So no, it isn't only you who would be liable.

tebbins

Also given how much you've gone on about this already I suspect you'll force liability down our throats when you make some losses.

tranquility1

Section62 said:

tranquility1 said:

Tesco are NOT liable for any losses that I may have by dealing with Coinbase. They specifically told me that on the phone. 

Tesco aren't liable. Taxpayers aren't liable. You aren't liable. Only I am liable.

They won't be liable for 'losses' if you buy crypto in a genuine transaction and that crypto is worth less money when you want to sell it.

But Malthusian is correct that banks can be liable if you unwisely transfer money to a company which isn't what it appears to be, or to buy something which isn't what you think it is. Those are different types of 'losses'.

So banks have a responsibility (rightly or wrongly) to 'police' what people try to spend their money on.  If they fail to do so then other customers or shareholders will pick up the tab for someone else's unwise spending decisions.  So no, it isn't only you who would be liable.

Tesco told me directly, over the phone, that they are NOT liable for my dealing with Coinbase.  They told me that they were following other banks and making harder to deal crypto as a matter of policy.

But I won't listen to Tesco Bank.  I'll instead take the word of Section62 who posts on chat forums.

tebbins

tranquility1 said:

Section62 said:

tranquility1 said:

Tesco are NOT liable for any losses that I may have by dealing with Coinbase. They specifically told me that on the phone. 

Tesco aren't liable. Taxpayers aren't liable. You aren't liable. Only I am liable.

They won't be liable for 'losses' if you buy crypto in a genuine transaction and that crypto is worth less money when you want to sell it.

But Malthusian is correct that banks can be liable if you unwisely transfer money to a company which isn't what it appears to be, or to buy something which isn't what you think it is. Those are different types of 'losses'.

So banks have a responsibility (rightly or wrongly) to 'police' what people try to spend their money on.  If they fail to do so then other customers or shareholders will pick up the tab for someone else's unwise spending decisions.  So no, it isn't only you who would be liable.

Tesco told me directly, over the phone, that they are NOT liable for my dealing with Coinbase.  They told me that they were following other banks and making harder to deal crypto as a matter of policy.

But I won't listen to Tesco Bank.  I'll instead take the word of Section62 who posts on chat forums.

As are we all, and you're literally the one asking the question and telling us about it like we've all invested in your drama. What's your point and why the attitude?

Malthusian

tranquility1 said:

Tesco are NOT liable for any losses that I may have by dealing with Coinbase. They specifically told me that on the phone. 

Tesco aren't liable. Taxpayers aren't liable. You aren't liable. Only I am liable.

That's not for Tesco to decide. Ultimately it's up to the FOS who would rule if Tesco refused to pay out and you complained.

If you want to verify what you are being told you can read the Authorised Push Payment Scam Code (Tesco Bank is not currently a signatory but it is standard practice for the FOS to consider industry-wide codes when deciding whether a company acted fairly and reasonably) and a few articles in the consumer press on APP victims who were refunded, or you can carry on unquestionably listening to people in call centres or people down the pub or some bro who told you Bitcoin would go to the moon or whomever you like.

Anyway, it's not in dispute that Tesco don't think they are liable for transferring money to one of the big unregulated crypto token sellers, otherwise they'd block the transfer entirely. What they are worried about is being held liable for transferring money on the random whim of one of their customers who had no idea what they were doing. Their policy is based on the idea that if they give the punter a day to think about it and they still tell them to make the transfer, this will shield them against any claim you didn't know what you were doing as they can say "you clearly meant to do this as we gave you a day to do some research and make sure you were certain". Plus lots of customers will never transfer money to a crypto platform in the first place as the ones acting on impulse will give up and forget about it.

Scottex99

Malthusian said:

tranquility1 said:

Tesco are NOT liable for any losses that I may have by dealing with Coinbase. They specifically told me that on the phone. 

Tesco aren't liable. Taxpayers aren't liable. You aren't liable. Only I am liable.

That's not for Tesco to decide. Ultimately it's up to the FOS who would rule if Tesco refused to pay out and you complained.

If you want to verify what you are being told you can read the Authorised Push Payment Scam Code (Tesco Bank is not currently a signatory but it is standard practice for the FOS to consider industry-wide codes when deciding whether a company acted fairly and reasonably) and a few articles in the consumer press on APP victims who were refunded, or you can carry on unquestionably listening to people in call centres or people down the pub or some bro who told you Bitcoin would go to the moon or whomever you like.

Anyway, it's not in dispute that Tesco don't think they are liable for transferring money to one of the big unregulated crypto token sellers, otherwise they'd block the transfer entirely. What they are worried about is being held liable for transferring money on the random whim of one of their customers who had no idea what they were doing. Their policy is based on the idea that if they give the punter a day to think about it and they still tell them to make the transfer, this will shield them against any claim you didn't know what you were doing as they can say "you clearly meant to do this as we gave you a day to do some research and make sure you were certain". Plus lots of customers will never transfer money to a crypto platform in the first place as the ones acting on impulse will give up and forget about it.

They could just have a pop up confirming the same, take 10 seconds to read and click. Or multiple choice questions like you have to answer when investing in Crowdcube etc.

”Are you aware that buying/investing in to crypto is high risk and the markets are extremely volatile?” Click yes, done.

Adyinvestment

Of course a lot of banks don't like crypto... why would they when a lot of what they offer can be done much quicker, easier and cheaper on blockchain?

Banks will adjust though, already 55 of the worlds top 100 banks have at least some involvement in crypto.

55% of the world’s top 100 banks reportedly have crypto and blockchain exposure (cointelegraph.com)

fwor

Adyinvestment said:

why would they when a lot of what they offer can be done much quicker, easier and cheaper on blockchain?

I've never seen anyone try to argue that crypto transactions are quicker, easier or cheaper. What makes you say that?

All of the cash transfers and payments that I do via my bank cost me nothing as individual transactions, and my overall banking service is free. My credit card payments actually pay me money, as I have a cashback card. I've never paid any fees to my credit card provider. And it's all managed online via my phone - can crypto transactions really be easier than that?

You say crypto transactions are cheaper than "free" - how much does a typical crypto transaction cost you then?

Scottex99

Try to wire JPY from a Bank in Tokyo to a bank in Brazil, then see how long it takes, how much it costs and if it can even be done.

Then do the exact same value of transfer via USDC and it'll land in 60 seconds from your wallet to mine