BITCOIN

Adyinvestment

To add to my above post, I wanted to say that I personally have not cashed any profit from Bitcoin/crypto and don't recommend any new people enter without first doing due diligence - this is very early and very volatile, especially alt coins will almost certainly pump and dump.

Scottex99

fwor said:

Scottex99 said:

Try to wire JPY from a Bank in Tokyo to a bank in Brazil, then see how long it takes, how much it costs and if it can even be done.

Then do the exact same value of transfer via USDC and it'll land in 60 seconds from your wallet to mine

Ah Scottex - thanks, you're always ready with a nice real-world example that the average man in the street can relate to!

So... let's take the case where there's a problem, and the transfer does ~not~ land in 60 seconds. What would the average man in the street do about that? What regulator would look at the case and adjudicate for me, as a UK citizen, transferring Yen from Japan to Brazil? How would such a problem be resolved fairly?

Haha fair enough, was a bit obscure.

I'll give a better example that I personally see every single day and one of the reason my company makes a good bit of revenue. Not related to the average man but the same way a 800m syndicated libor loan isn't either.

You're a company in an industry that is perfectly legal but traditionally has been hard to get banking. Gaming/Gambling, FX, CBD, !!!!!!, Crypto, etc etc. "High Risk". You're owed money from another business/client/partner in the space. They are in Poland and you are in London, they owe you £100k, how are you going to get it?

We do this everyday for firms, in the millions. Coins (generally stablecoins USDT/C etc because less volatile) come into us on behalf of various clients and we flip them to EUR/GBP/USD and get the "real money" paid out.

To be more general, BTC is speculative store of value right now, so is ETH.
Stablecoins are for buying stuff, in my case just more crypto lol

fwor

Errr... yes, but that doesn't answer my question. What happens (for the average man in the street) when a transaction goes wrong?

What regulator adjudicates for a transaction in Yen going from Japan to Brazil (your example)? How do problems get resolved fairly, and who enforces the outcome of an adjudication?

Scottex99

fwor said:

Errr... yes, but that doesn't answer my question. What happens (for the average man in the street) when a transaction goes wrong?

What regulator adjudicates for a transaction in Yen going from Japan to Brazil (your example)? How do problems get resolved fairly, and who enforces the outcome of an adjudication?

Nothing happens, if you make a major mistake it's on you. Sent to an invalid address, lose your seed phrase, use the wrong blockchain etc and your coins are gone. This is the drawback of having decentralized finance. I've personally moved hundreds of Ks worth of crypto through a large amounts of wallets and yep I've lost some coins along the way but that's part of the learning process. It's not for everyone, it doesn't have to be. 

fwor

Scottex99 said:

It's not for everyone, it doesn't have to be. 

Yes, but while that is true, it is in no way "Quicker, easier and cheaper" than the existing banking system.

And as I don't see any prospect of that issue - and other similar ones - being solved, it's not likely to be for the foreseeable future.

Hexane

Scottex99 said:

fwor said:

Scottex99 said:

Try to wire JPY from a Bank in Tokyo to a bank in Brazil, then see how long it takes, how much it costs and if it can even be done.

Then do the exact same value of transfer via USDC and it'll land in 60 seconds from your wallet to mine

Ah Scottex - thanks, you're always ready with a nice real-world example that the average man in the street can relate to!

So... let's take the case where there's a problem, and the transfer does ~not~ land in 60 seconds. What would the average man in the street do about that? What regulator would look at the case and adjudicate for me, as a UK citizen, transferring Yen from Japan to Brazil? How would such a problem be resolved fairly?

I'll give a better example that I personally see every single day and one of the reason my company makes a good bit of revenue. Not related to the average man but the same way a 800m syndicated libor loan isn't either.

You're a company in an industry that is perfectly legal but traditionally has been hard to get banking. Gaming/Gambling, FX, CBD, !!!!!!, Crypto, etc etc. "High Risk". You're owed money from another business/client/partner in the space. They are in Poland and you are in London, they owe you £100k, how are you going to get it?

We do this everyday for firms, in the millions. 

Oh excellent, a @!@!@!@ business with hundreds of thousands in cash sloshing around in eastern Europe. Every single day! Sure there isn't some human trafficking or human slavery going on there somewhere beneath all that? It's certainly giving a good impression of crypto as a good above board respectable financial tool. (Yes I know, 55% of banks are invested in it...)

Adyinvestment

fwor said:

Scottex99 said:

It's not for everyone, it doesn't have to be. 

Yes, but while that is true, it is in no way "Quicker, easier and cheaper" than the existing banking system.

And as I don't see any prospect of that issue - and other similar ones - being solved, it's not likely to be for the foreseeable future.

Bitcoin isn't but Blockchain/crypto is, and is the reason why major banks around the world are adopting it now - your post is just made up without any knowledge.

fwor

Adyinvestment said:

Bitcoin isn't but Blockchain/crypto is, and is the reason why major banks around the world are adopting it now - your post is just made up without any knowledge.

On the contrary - your "quicker easier cheaper" assertion is just wishful thinking, based not on what is actually true, but on the fact that it serves your financial interests for other people to believe that it's true.

Most of the problems with cryptocurrencies have nothing to do with technical issues. They are to do with operational security and trust, and they are very very hard to solve in an environment which is decentralised.

Adyinvestment

fwor said:

Adyinvestment said:

Bitcoin isn't but Blockchain/crypto is, and is the reason why major banks around the world are adopting it now - your post is just made up without any knowledge.

On the contrary - your "quicker easier cheaper" assertion is just wishful thinking, based not on what is actually true, but on the fact that it serves your financial interests for other people to believe that it's true.

Again, you are just plucking out of thin air.

There are plenty of banks and financial institutions starting to adopt crypto, one example would be XRP (I have chosen them because I have no financial interest in them) who are starting to be used by well-known names such as Santander, Bank of America, links with Bank of Israel and many more.

I don't know why you think this is wishful thinking when it is actually fact.

Global Payment Solutions - Instant Processing | Ripple

I have no problem with people having a different point of view to mine, but it amazes me how the crypto haters seem to have blinkers on and make up their own truth's.

fwor

That's always the standard response - "you're a hater". But I'm not - I don't hate crypto in any way.

What I do dislike is the fact that MSE is generally a well-trusted site, and it frustrates me to see ramping threads like this, where all of the legal and operational issues get glossed over, because crypto has to be portrayed as the next great thing - to keep the money coming in and the values up.

In the example that Scottex chose, where someone transfers money from Japan to Brazil, what happens in the case of a dispute - the payer says that he has paid and the payee says he not been paid? In the "old fashioned" system, the banks produce their records and the courts decide on that basis. With crypto, will the courts in Tokyo accept that the blockchain has any legal status - will they trust what the blockchain says, see an entry made by a processor in (say) Mexico showing a transfer to a recipient in Brazil and decide in my favour? We don't know.

There is so much about the operational side of traditional "centralised" banking that can't be addressed in any easy way in a system where the components are distributed around the world in multiple legal jurisdictions, each operated by organisations that are not part of a "trusted" environment.