BITCOIN

Thrugelmir

tranquility1 said:

thegentleway said:

tranquility1 said:

This parish shills equities/bonds

You think equities/bonds are a swindle? 

But what I will say is this: all investors today (even the older ones) have only ever known decreases in interest rates. They've come down from 18% in the 1980s to almost 0% today. Therefore an entire generation have got used to equities performing well. 

Look back at history and you'll see that BOE base rate moved considerably . The final peak was 1989. After which we had the Nikkei crash, the Asian Debt Crisis, the Dot Com boom and the GFC.  To say equities performed well is something of an over statement. Was bonds against a backdrop of falling interest rates that provided a non correlated asset and provided positive returns. Equities are performing well because there's an excess of savings that need a home. Equities performing well doesn't mean that the underlying assets (i.e. companies) are though.  A different era but fundamentally the same game. 

lozzy1965

bugbyte_2 said:

Scottex99 said:

bugbyte_2 said:

Good point. What is the problem that Crypto solves again?

Damn you’re right, sell it all

Seriously, What is the problem that Cripto is trying to solve?

Innovation.

“If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses.”   Attributed, rightly or wrongly, to Henry Ford.

It's how we end up with things that we never realised we couldn't do without.

We may well be looking back in 10 or 20 years time saying, "Currencies, can you believe that used to be a thing?"  

A bit like what the Euro was supposed to be.  You know, not having to change currency just because you are going on holiday to another country!!!

Us youngsters see that kind of thing as a benefit!

MattMattMattUK

lozzy1965 said:

bugbyte_2 said:

Scottex99 said:

bugbyte_2 said:

Good point. What is the problem that Crypto solves again?

Damn you’re right, sell it all

Seriously, What is the problem that Cripto is trying to solve?

Innovation.

You can not solve innovation.

lozzy1965 said:

“If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses.”   Attributed, rightly or wrongly, to Henry Ford.

It's how we end up with things that we never realised we couldn't do without.

It is also how we ended up with a lot of things we would be better without, how we ended up with a lot of things but have consequences that now need to be dealt with, or will be imposed on our children. 

Crypto currency mining and the technology behind it all (blockchain) is incredibly inefficient. Mining a BitCoin generates around 700kg of CO2, that is roughly equivalent to 2.5 months CO2 production for the average European (or 1.2 months for the average American). Processing one BitCoin transaction uses as much electricity as 1.5 million bank transfers (or Visa/Mastercard/Amex transactions). Cryptocurrency is not solving a problem and it has no viable long term implementations, indeed if it were used for UK banking we would need to double the amount of power production in the UK to power the data centres just to handle the transactions (Bitcoin alone, mining and transactions currently consume more than twice the electricity the UK uses in a year and Bitcoin now makes up less than a third of total crypto energy consumption).

lozzy1965 said:

We may well be looking back in 10 or 20 years time saying, "Currencies, can you believe that used to be a thing?"  

More likely we will be looking back thinking why did we waste so much electricity and other resources producing something with no intrinsic value which added to climate change. Technological innovation is interesting, but all BitCoin and other Crytpocurrencies were designed to do was to make early adopters a lot of money, with the bonus that some speculators also made a lot of money along the wey.

lozzy1965 said:

A bit like what the Euro was supposed to be.  You know, not having to change currency just because you are going on holiday to another country!!!

Which has not been an issue in my lifetime and with cash now all but dead, transaction processed from one currency to another are no longer an issue. 

lozzy1965 said:

Us youngsters see that kind of thing as a benefit!

Us youngsters (or not so young, being in my thirties) see a lot of things as a benefit, AI, driverless cars, digital transactions, online shopping, Crispr, renewables etc. But crypto has been around for thirteen years, it does not seem to offer any benefits, the technology, whilst trendy has few applications in the real world, and it is incredibly inefficient as well as the processing of the mining calculations being entirely pointless.

Thrugelmir

lozzy1965 said:

bugbyte_2 said:

Scottex99 said:

bugbyte_2 said:

Good point. What is the problem that Crypto solves again?

Damn you’re right, sell it all

Seriously, What is the problem that Cripto is trying to solve?

Innovation.

“If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses.”   Attributed, rightly or wrongly, to Henry Ford.

It's how we end up with things that we never realised we couldn't do without.

Henry Ford invented the production line.  That's a productive advancement. 

DjangoUnchained

at least henry ford didnt say he would accept bitcoin to buy his cars then change his mind.

Scottex99

MattMattMattUK said:

lozzy1965 said:

bugbyte_2 said:

Scottex99 said:

bugbyte_2 said:

Good point. What is the problem that Crypto solves again?

Damn you’re right, sell it all

Seriously, What is the problem that Cripto is trying to solve?

Innovation.

You can not solve innovation.

lozzy1965 said:

“If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses.”   Attributed, rightly or wrongly, to Henry Ford.

It's how we end up with things that we never realised we couldn't do without.

It is also how we ended up with a lot of things we would be better without, how we ended up with a lot of things but have consequences that now need to be dealt with, or will be imposed on our children. 

Crypto currency mining and the technology behind it all (blockchain) is incredibly inefficient. Mining a BitCoin generates around 700kg of CO2, that is roughly equivalent to 2.5 months CO2 production for the average European (or 1.2 months for the average American). Processing one BitCoin transaction uses as much electricity as 1.5 million bank transfers (or Visa/Mastercard/Amex transactions). Cryptocurrency is not solving a problem and it has no viable long term implementations, indeed if it were used for UK banking we would need to double the amount of power production in the UK to power the data centres just to handle the transactions (Bitcoin alone, mining and transactions currently consume more than twice the electricity the UK uses in a year and Bitcoin now makes up less than a third of total crypto energy consumption).

lozzy1965 said:

We may well be looking back in 10 or 20 years time saying, "Currencies, can you believe that used to be a thing?"  

More likely we will be looking back thinking why did we waste so much electricity and other resources producing something with no intrinsic value which added to climate change. Technological innovation is interesting, but all BitCoin and other Crytpocurrencies were designed to do was to make early adopters a lot of money, with the bonus that some speculators also made a lot of money along the wey.

lozzy1965 said:

A bit like what the Euro was supposed to be.  You know, not having to change currency just because you are going on holiday to another country!!!

Which has not been an issue in my lifetime and with cash now all but dead, transaction processed from one currency to another are no longer an issue. 

lozzy1965 said:

Us youngsters see that kind of thing as a benefit!

Us youngsters (or not so young, being in my thirties) see a lot of things as a benefit, AI, driverless cars, digital transactions, online shopping, Crispr, renewables etc. But crypto has been around for thirteen years, it does not seem to offer any benefits, the technology, whilst trendy has few applications in the real world, and it is incredibly inefficient as well as the processing of the mining calculations being entirely pointless.

Innovation rather than solving innovation, clearly.

BTC isn’t the whole crypto market and probably less than 10 major coins use a POW system. ETH the 2nd biggest coin is in the process of transitioning to POS this year.

A few myths debunked too: https://www.verdict.co.uk/bitcoin-mining-uses-very-little-energy/

No intrinsic value? Wrong.
Only created to make early adopters money? Wrong.
Has few real world applications? Wrong.
Mining being pointless? Lol, wrong. Energy intensive yes but pointless no. That’s how Satoshi solved the double spend problem and paved the way for decentralised digital money.

If you don’t like crypto that’s cool but don’t spout nonsense like you actually know anything about it. Cheers

lozzy1965

Thanks for all the interesting comments on both sides of the argument above.  I won't do multiple quotes to answer each point I wish to comment on.  Just make a few responses below to continue this interesting debate:

MattMattMattUK: I am rather older than "in my 30's" .  With regard to 'innovation' I was commenting more on the fact that crypto is in my opinion, new-ish (albeit chugging along for 13 years so far) and is certainly innovative.  It may well come to nothing, or it may well change the world.  I am completely down the middle on this point.  I do believe that generally speaking, people are very slow to warm (no climate pun intended) to change (myself included).
A single world currency is a huge benefit in my opinion, but then I want to see one big happy unified world too!

Scottex99:  Always enjoy your comments - as one of the few from the 'other side of the discussion'.  Horrible link!!!  One of those ones where my back button doesn't let me leave the site to return from whence I came .  So, energy use isn't as big as it is implied, but it is still big surely?

Scottex99

Haha tbf I did a quick 10 second google just to see what came up, not my finest bit of research. But the banking industry uses more electricity than BTC right now, fact. 

Plus people suddenly massively care about BTC killing the world when they dont care about US/China companies pumping crap into the air every day?

My main take away is, it is very inefficient from an energy perspective but that can be fixed or made better by using waste energy or renewables. Plus ETH is going to Proof of Stake so there's a big reduction too.

No new coins/projects/protocols will be being made on POW for that reason.

Both sides of the argument are totally fine btw, as is being in the middle. I see the innovation every day from what I do for a living, make money directly from crypto trading, hold coins and am a shareholder in a company that was 4 guys when I joined 2.5 years ago and is now worth £55m (at current raise we're doing). So saying it's a Ponzi or worthless doesn't do it for me. Biggest financial institutions in the world are hardly going to be getting involved (yes I know, Madoff lol) if they thought there was any chance of it being an outright Ponzi

BTCGrey

Hi all - So, I have made a cataclysmic mistake and somehow I was taken in by all of this when someone "promoted" it to me as an investment of £200.00.

I did have some wariness to it but at the same time there was a bit of confidence to at least dipping my toe in it. 

I made my £200.00 "investment" through the initial company, but then the funds were transferred out immediately to one of the trading platforms. I spoke on the phone to the people who guided through the investment processes, but on one of their suggestions it there was quite a big negative-dip on the balance. They tried to reassure this would come good, but this is when it dawned on me that yes something was definitely amiss.

I stopped all trades, losing out probably around £50.00 on the investments. I went to withdraw using their website initially to my payment card but this was eventually "rejected" after a few days, claiming they can only withdraw to Bitcoin Wallets. I have had a very brief search about these Bitcoin Wallets in a vain effort to try and see if I can at least withdraw back to my payment card but this is were reality is dawning on me that I may have lost this entire lot.

Some of the websites offering this service only seem to do it as a "charge" service, so in the end I could be putting in further cash (With risk) without guarantee of any recompense. I am thankful it was only this miniscule amount to dip my toe in - But after being bitten this is something I would avoid but hopefully I can get some outcome on this.

eskbanker

BTCGrey said:

Hi all - So, I have made a cataclysmic mistake and somehow I was taken in by all of this when someone "promoted" it to me as an investment of £200.00.

[...]

But after being bitten this is something I would avoid but hopefully I can get some outcome on this.

Your experience really isn't anything to do with Bitcoin as such, in terms of the actual cryptocurrency discussed in this thread, but you've been scammed by some shady outfit lazily, but spuriously, tossing in the word 'bitcoin' to tempt in unsuspecting punters....