BITCOIN

Zola.

😂😂
Typical - always when pressed after you make these type of claims (bitcoin being superseded), you never back it up with anything when asked... and just deflect.

Aegis

Zola. said:

😂😂
Typical - always when pressed after you make these type of claims (bitcoin being superseded), you never back it up with anything when asked... and just deflect.

Typical - you prefer to mock rather than actually address highlighted issues and to insult rather than actually engage like an adult.

Ignored...

Frequentlyhere

It would be interesting to see a response to what I saw as a systemic dismemberment of that article from @Aegis .

I read that article too. It's pretty much a top 10 articulation of incredibly weak arguments for it.

One of my favourites is this bit:

"In the future it is very likely that crypto currency wallets in some form could supplant bank accounts as we know them today. New tools will be developed that can do everything that banks can do but also will be able to do new things that we can’t even imagine today. Why send an ACH money transfer that will take 5–7 days when you can send money over the Blockchain in just minutes. Not only does this technology threaten banks, but also all of the trusted intermediaries that deal with money transfers are no longer needed"

I mean, just think. One day in the bright bright future, if they develop those tools they've had 13 years to work on, we might be able to accelerate the faster payments process we can do in about 30 seconds now typically to 'just minutes'.

And on the rare occasions that we need to send money abroad, we'll 'simply' be able to convert all of our £ to BTC, initiate a BTC transfer, and then another person can transfer all of that BTC back to their own currency. Which may cost probably 5-10x more in effort and expense than the many available ways to do this already, but could theoretically arrive sooner, which is almost always not at all in the slightest bit important. Be still my beating heart.

Plus...plus! We won't need any of those irritating fraud or safety mechanisms that banks have, and will thankfully be able to freely once again send money to entirely the wrong account by getting one digit wrong or be defrauded without recompense. But don't worry, there will be a public decentralised record that we have done so. Praise be!

Aegis

Frequentlyhere said:

It would be interesting to see a response to what I saw as a systemic dismemberment of that article from @Aegis .

I read that article too. It's pretty much a top 10 articulation of incredibly weak arguments for it.

One of my favourites is this bit:

"In the future it is very likely that crypto currency wallets in some form could supplant bank accounts as we know them today. New tools will be developed that can do everything that banks can do but also will be able to do new things that we can’t even imagine today. Why send an ACH money transfer that will take 5–7 days when you can send money over the Blockchain in just minutes. Not only does this technology threaten banks, but also all of the trusted intermediaries that deal with money transfers are no longer needed"

I mean, just think. One day in the bright bright future, if they develop those tools they've had 13 years to work on, we might be able to accelerate the faster payments process we can do in about 30 seconds now typically to 'just minutes'.

And on the rare occasions that we need to send money abroad, we'll 'simply' be able to convert all of our £ to BTC, initiate a BTC transfer, and then another person can transfer all of that BTC back to their own currency. Which may cost probably 5-10x more in effort and expense than the many available ways to do this already, but could theoretically arrive sooner, which is almost always not at all in the slightest bit important. Be still my beating heart.

Plus...plus! We won't need any of those irritating fraud or safety mechanisms that banks have, and will thankfully be able to freely once again send money to entirely the wrong account by getting one digit wrong or be defrauded without recompense. But don't worry, there will be a public decentralised record that we have done so. Praise be!

I can't even remember the last time I sent a payment that didn't slot nicely into the Faster Payments remit and therefore arrive same day, usually within minutes.  I guess if I was regularly sending large payments overseas, the transit time for current payments might still be days, but I know that when I worked for HSBC is was possible to do instant transfers to foreign currency accounts in your own name, so it's likely that there's already a range of solutions that doesn't require blockchain.  Otherwise the majority of payments I make are on credit card to get the points and the section 75 protection, and the transaction happens immediately with settlement usually over the next month or so.  Again, I don't really see a problem here that needs a solution.

bugbyte_2

Zola. said:

Wrong.

Am I though?

Bitcoin can process between 3.3 and 7 transactions per second and to do this it uses approximately the same amount of energy as Argentina.

It uses that amount of energy to deter any attack on the system hence the correct statement "Proof of Work secures the network. It is a required security feature to ensure decentralisatuon without interference. Not a bug. "

If you can read those two sentences and still not see the massive Argentina sized issue here then I suspect there is no hope for you. 

Zola.

Yes - you are wrong. 

Bitcoin is a very simple protocol (like TCP/IP), on which layers are built. These days, everyday, small transactions probably shouldn't be conducted on the base layer, unless you want to wait about 10 minutes for it to settle. 

The Bitcoin Lightning Network is capable of processing 1,000,000 transactions per second

The absurd claims comparing a single transaction's energy usage to Argentina (or insert another nation state), is frankly so laughable, inaccurate and misconstrued, that it's not even worth discussing. Links have been provided many times before on this. Yet the same nonsense keeps getting spouted by parrots who only read mainstream media headlines and cant do their own due diligence. If you cant do this then I suspect there is no hope for you.

Heres a helping hand
https://hbr.org/2021/05/how-much-energy-does-bitcoin-actually-consume

Malthusian

But transactions on the Lightning network have to be updated on the blockchain eventually (although you don't have to update every transaction, just the final position of a series of transactions). At which point the 3.3-7 transactions per second applies.

And the longer you spend trading Bitcoins in dark pools on the Lightning network, the less protection you have from Bitcoin's impregnable blockchain which seems to defeat the entire point.

It is a bit like defending the slowness and unwieldiness of cheques by saying "yeah but you can exchange them for cash at Cash Converters". That makes the process faster for you but someone else still has to cash the cheque.

And the fundamental problem is still finding a problem for Bitcoin to solve, not solving Bitcoin's problems by layering another system on top, so that it can become slightly less bad at transmitting money from A to B than noobcoin fiat payment networks.

Zola.

Of course it remains to be seen where this all goes long term. Few people predicted the power of the lightning network 10 years ago and it is steadily being developed further.

A cafe in El Salvador may opt to keep most of their trade in one, or several lightning wallets long term... or somewhere else. As LN is developed further and we get things like robust channel factories, settlement back on the base layer becomes more and more the special case rather than the norm. The base layer is there, and can be used to resolve disputes, but if there's no dispute, that channel can go on living forever.

A cheque takes days to clear. Debit card payments takes days to clear. Last month I sold some of my restricted stock units that my employer gave me, to get the funds sent from the US to my UK bank account took over 5 working days. 

A lightning transaction takes a millisecond... An on-chain Bitcoin transaction takes about 10 mins to fully settle..

Which system is too slow and outdated again?

Reaper

This thread suddenly went quiet. I wonder if it is related to the current market capitulation, demonstrating once again its volatility and its unsuitability as a currency.

Adyinvestment

--Classy--