Anyone have experience with PayPal/eBay - please help!

lizzie201296

Hi. I'm hoping someone out there can give me some advice on the below as I can't get my head around it but I am sure it isn't right...! I'll try to explain it as clearly as possible:

On 24/11/19, I was paid through PayPal for an item (a coat) I sold on eBay (£50 - the money does bother me but it is also just the principle!). The buyer is in the USA and paid through PayPal. No problems. The coat was in good condition, matched its description, photos on the ad etc.
I dispatched the item and that was that. Didn't hear from them again.
On 18/04/20, the buyer opened a case on PayPal - note, not a dispute - a case. PayPal themselves state that if there are any issues, the buyer should contact the seller (me) to discuss, then open a dispute, then finally a case if it can't be resolved. This all according to their own guidance on resolutions. So my first thoughts were - how come this has gone straight to being a case without there being a dispute or even any contact?
The buyer has never contacted me directly, and there are no notes on the case details apart from an automated comment stating:
"The buyer reported that the item they received wasn't as described. After reviewing the information we received, we were unable to cover the payment in this case. However, we might be able to recover this from the buyer's financial institution. Once we file a case on your behalf with the buyer's financial institution, it could take up to 75 days to get a resolution. If we're able to recover the payment of £52.98 GBP, we'll refund the money to your PayPal balance."
On 21/04/20 I added my comments to the case - all I was able to do was submit this on the case page, where I basically stated that I disagreed with this since the buyer had not contacted me directly, not opened a dispute through PayPal, nor submitted any evidence whatsoever to prove that the item was 'not as described'. PayPal simply removed the 50 quid from my account with no warning and have said if they can get it back, they will, but can't make any promises.

Now my question is - how is any of this OK? My thoughts (or aghast comments):
- How can the buyer raise this after 5 months? Surely if there was an issue, they should have to contact me within a certain timeframe to resolve it? Even if the coat is now damaged, how can anyone know at this point whether it arrived like that or whether they've done it themselves?
- How can the case be ruled in the buyer's favour when they haven't submitted any photo evidence, nor even written a single comment themselves? Neither myself nor PayPal have heard from the buyer directly - the case was simply opened and the money taken from my account. Should I not be able to discuss this and argue my case??
- According to PayPal, "this was a chargeback that was filed directly with your buyer's financial institution. That is why it did not go through the usual disputes process that we have here in PayPal." and "When the card company decides the case in the buyer's favor we cannot dispute the chargeback any further. If you would like to take action outside of PayPal we recommend you reach out to the buyer directly for further resolution, file complaints with various fraud organizations, or take legal action if necessary."

So I now have to sit and wait for the 'investigation' by Paypal, and if they do decide that the buyer 'wins' then I have no say in the matter and they just take the money. How is this allowed? Surely anyone could just buy something online, wait 5 months and complain to their bank that there was something wrong and get a refund... It is really bothering me that at no point have I been able to talk directly with the buyer (I don't have access to their contact details anymore because the transaction has been cleared from Ebay due to being so old!) and PayPal can't talk to them on my behalf. Is it just me or does this reek of dodgy fraud? A silent anonymous buyer getting their money back without saying a word, submitting any evidence, bypassing the PayPal resolution centre completely and waiting 5 months to do it all?

Does anyone have ANY thoughts/advice/experience on the above? I'm at a complete loss - it may not be a load of money but it's still money I wasn't expecting to just be taken from my account without any warning! 

Thank you!

Ectophile

The buyer has already won, by getting their bank to take the money back off PayPal.  There's nothing PayPal can do about it.

PayPal doesn't want to lose the money, so they took it back off you.  Now they are saying it's your problem.

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

You may wish to email the buyer and advise them that if they aren't willing to repay the money you'll be contacting their local police station to report this as mail fraud  which is a Federal offence in the US. You can find details of their police force on Google and possibly submit the report online.  

As above your buyer hasn't raised a case with Paypal, they've gone through their bank or card or decided to recall the payment. 

For items sold on eBay you should typically have seller protection but it doesn't appear to apply to not as described claims. 

You may wish to check to make sure Paypal hasn't charged you an additional fee of at least £14 on top of the refund. 

lizzie201296

Argh! I've never experienced something like this before; didn't think it was so easy to just get your money back! Would the buyers' bank not have investigated it in more detail, like contacting me to discuss?? 

Do you think there is any chance of me getting the money bank - if I report it as mail fraud as you suggest, is it likely to be ruled in my favour? Not sure what the law is around this sort of thing is, as obviously they have no evidence the item is 'not as described' but equally I have no evidence that it isn't if you know what I mean? There's no way to prove who is right and who is wrong either way surely, without the buyer literally being investigated as a repeat offender surely?

Thanks both for your comments, much appreciated!

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

The threat of the police report may be enough alone to see the buyer pay up, particularly if they live in a small town. 

sarahking87

The mistake here is cutting eBay out of the equation and assuming the responsibility sits with PayPal, who are just the agent processing the payment. The terms for returns and disputes you should be looking at are eBays.

eBay will have a record of the auction and sale details even though it was 5 months ago. Assuming the buyer hasn’t deleted their eBay account, eBay can still raise a dispute and will act as an intermediary - seeking replies from both you and the buyer. If the buyer does not respond in a given timeframe (I think it is 30 days) you may be given an eBay fee credit and it’s as simple as that. 

Something similar happened to me last year where a UK buyer bought an expensive item from me. I sent it tracked , insured and signed for , and after c.40 days the buyer said the item hasn’t been received (there was tracked courier evidence to show it had been). As in your case, the money was taken from my account and the onus was on me to prove the buyer was acting unreasonably. 

eBay did , after a few weeks and several phone calls, agree that the item had been signed for and the buyer had acted unreasonably by waiting over a month to report a problem. I got my money back in the end. 

lizzie201296

sarahking87 said:

The mistake here is cutting eBay out of the equation and assuming the responsibility sits with PayPal, who are just the agent processing the payment. The terms for returns and disputes you should be looking at are eBays.

eBay will have a record of the auction and sale details even though it was 5 months ago. Assuming the buyer hasn’t deleted their eBay account, eBay can still raise a dispute and will act as an intermediary - seeking replies from both you and the buyer. If the buyer does not respond in a given timeframe (I think it is 30 days) you may be given an eBay fee credit and it’s as simple as that. 

Something similar happened to me last year where a UK buyer bought an expensive item from me. I sent it tracked , insured and signed for , and after c.40 days the buyer said the item hasn’t been received (there was tracked courier evidence to show it had been). As in your case, the money was taken from my account and the onus was on me to prove the buyer was acting unreasonably. 

eBay did , after a few weeks and several phone calls, agree that the item had been signed for and the buyer had acted unreasonably by waiting over a month to report a problem. I got my money back in the end. 

Thank you, this is really helpful. Will give eBay a go and see what they can do! Hadn't thought about going to them, assumed that as the transaction is no longer showing on my account, they are no longer involved. Fingers crossed!

davidmcn

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

The threat of the police report may be enough alone to see the buyer pay up, particularly if they live in a small town. 

Even if there were prima facie evidence of a fraud taking place (which there isn't here) I can't see any law enforcement agencies taking an interest in something worth £50. Unless they're really bored.

LABMAN

OP Re-post here:-
Ebay, Auctions, Car Boot & Jumble Sales

sarahking87

lizzie201296 said:

sarahking87 said:

The mistake here is cutting eBay out of the equation and assuming the responsibility sits with PayPal, who are just the agent processing the payment. The terms for returns and disputes you should be looking at are eBays.

eBay will have a record of the auction and sale details even though it was 5 months ago. Assuming the buyer hasn’t deleted their eBay account, eBay can still raise a dispute and will act as an intermediary - seeking replies from both you and the buyer. If the buyer does not respond in a given timeframe (I think it is 30 days) you may be given an eBay fee credit and it’s as simple as that. 

Something similar happened to me last year where a UK buyer bought an expensive item from me. I sent it tracked , insured and signed for , and after c.40 days the buyer said the item hasn’t been received (there was tracked courier evidence to show it had been). As in your case, the money was taken from my account and the onus was on me to prove the buyer was acting unreasonably. 

eBay did , after a few weeks and several phone calls, agree that the item had been signed for and the buyer had acted unreasonably by waiting over a month to report a problem. I got my money back in the end. 

Thank you, this is really helpful. Will give eBay a go and see what they can do! Hadn't thought about going to them, assumed that as the transaction is no longer showing on my account, they are no longer involved. Fingers crossed!

No problem, although you should know a buyer can raise a chargeback via their CC company up to 12 months after the event. Some of these can be resolved by simply providing proof of postage

it would be interesting to know if the buyer left you any eBay feedback at the time, or confirmed via eBay messages when the item was received. In an ideal world you’d still have a copy of the tracking showing when it was signed for and by whom! 

Strange to have a “not as described” chargeback claim after 5 months ,  I’m surprised the credit card company accepted that. Usually unauthorised card use is a more common, retrospective complaint 

lizzie201296

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

You may wish to email the buyer and advise them that if they aren't willing to repay the money you'll be contacting their local police station to report this as mail fraud  which is a Federal offence in the US. You can find details of their police force on Google and possibly submit the report online.  

As above your buyer hasn't raised a case with Paypal, they've gone through their bank or card or decided to recall the payment. 

For items sold on eBay you should typically have seller protection but it doesn't appear to apply to not as described claims. 

You may wish to check to make sure Paypal hasn't charged you an additional fee of at least £14 on top of the refund. 

Does anyone know how to go about reporting mail fraud? Done some googling and I think this falls under wire fraud, not mail fraud. And if it's a federal offence does that still go through their local police station? I can't work out if this should be reported through a federal site or local police? I just want to make sure if I threaten them with this I get my facts right, even if I don't follow through with it!