Anyone have experience with PayPal/eBay - please help!

lizzie201296

sarahking87 said:

born_again said:

sarahking87 said:

No problem, although you should know a buyer can raise a chargeback via their CC company up to 12 months after the event. Some of these can be resolved by simply providing proof of postage

Strange to have a “not as described” chargeback claim after 5 months ,  I’m surprised the credit card company accepted that. Usually unauthorised card use is a more common, retrospective complaint 

The max time scale for a chargeback is 120 days from the date of debit in this case. Even PayPal is only 180 days.

I think the deadlines can be different for defective goods or not as described.
“ MasterCard chargeback code 4853 - Cardholder Dispute, Defective/Not as Described/Counterfeit. Up to 540 days.”

“Visa guidelines:

• Negotiations between the cardholder and merchant have been implemented and the attempt to resolve the dispute is ongoing
• The negotiations occurred within 120 days (but not more than 540 days) of the transaction processing date”

Surely both of these should still have to involve some sort of communication between buyer and seller. If the buyer had contacted me, either directly or through PayPal/eBay and attempted to resolve the supposed 'issue' I would have been more understanding/less skeptical. I would have probably said OK, show me photos that it is not as described, then challenged that 5 months is not a reasonable amount of time for clothing (it could easily have become damaged during the time they've been in possession of it). If they were still kicking up a fuss I would have said return it to me and I'll refund you, just to avoid an ongoing conflict. However, I would have done all of the above through the PayPal resolution centre so that it was all properly recorded and PayPal could mediate if necessary.

What they have done is file a chargeback without making any contact whatsoever, either to myself or to PayPal. Seems very odd that you can claim your money back without having to say a single word. What if I bought a brand new book and after 5 months of reading it and taking it around in my bag it had become dogeared and a bit battered....I could file a chargeback and just say 'item is not as described'. Well duh, it's not new anymore. Agh this is making me so mad! Such a stupid system!

sarahking87

lizzie201296 said:

sarahking87 said:

born_again said:

sarahking87 said:

No problem, although you should know a buyer can raise a chargeback via their CC company up to 12 months after the event. Some of these can be resolved by simply providing proof of postage

Strange to have a “not as described” chargeback claim after 5 months ,  I’m surprised the credit card company accepted that. Usually unauthorised card use is a more common, retrospective complaint 

The max time scale for a chargeback is 120 days from the date of debit in this case. Even PayPal is only 180 days.

I think the deadlines can be different for defective goods or not as described.
“ MasterCard chargeback code 4853 - Cardholder Dispute, Defective/Not as Described/Counterfeit. Up to 540 days.”

“Visa guidelines:

• Negotiations between the cardholder and merchant have been implemented and the attempt to resolve the dispute is ongoing
• The negotiations occurred within 120 days (but not more than 540 days) of the transaction processing date”

Surely both of these should still have to involve some sort of communication between buyer and seller. If the buyer had contacted me, either directly or through PayPal/eBay and attempted to resolve the supposed 'issue' I would have been more understanding/less skeptical. I would have probably said OK, show me photos that it is not as described, then challenged that 5 months is not a reasonable amount of time for clothing (it could easily have become damaged during the time they've been in possession of it). If they were still kicking up a fuss I would have said return it to me and I'll refund you, just to avoid an ongoing conflict. However, I would have done all of the above through the PayPal resolution centre so that it was all properly recorded and PayPal could mediate if necessary.

What they have done is file a chargeback without making any contact whatsoever, either to myself or to PayPal. Seems very odd that you can claim your money back without having to say a single word. What if I bought a brand new book and after 5 months of reading it and taking it around in my bag it had become dogeared and a bit battered....I could file a chargeback and just say 'item is not as described'. Well duh, it's not new anymore. Agh this is making me so mad! Such a stupid system!

the card provider has reviewed the case and agreed with the buyer that there was a problem. Frustrating, but factual.

Your dispute response, if you have the opportunity to do this through PayPal, only needs to include: 

1. Date of sale and payment
 2. How did you post it? (was this in line with what the buyer paid for on the auction?)

3. Do you have any proof of when it was sent?
4. Any proof of when it was received?

5. What was your eBay returns policy for this specific auction? Did you leave it as “returns not accepted”? ( If so, the buyer may have just gone straight to their card company on the basis that they can’t return. )

If you used an untracked economy service with Royal Mail, for example, their website says it can take up to 42 days.

I recently raised a chargeback dispute with my own credit card company, they told me it could take up to 6 weeks to investigate. 

If you want to get in contact with the buyer your only route is through eBay.

after several instances of mucking around with bogus claims on eBay, I rarely use it any more. I never ship internationally either. It is often more hassle than it’s worth- some people have to ruin it for everyone.

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

davidmcn said:

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

The threat of the police report may be enough alone to see the buyer pay up, particularly if they live in a small town. 

Even if there were prima facie evidence of a fraud taking place (which there isn't here) I can't see any law enforcement agencies taking an interest in something worth £50. Unless they're really bored.

Generally speaking it's a bluff. 

If the buyer lives in New York the police are probably busy, if they live in Sleepyville the police may take an interest, the buyer may know everyone in their town and not want their name tainted or they may do this regularly and cut their losses by repaying the OP to avoid getting caught. 

I'm not sure if this situation is classed a mail fraud, the buyer may not know either, again it's a bluff but it may well open the avenue of communication to at least find out what the problem was. 

OP is best seeing if they can get the buyers email from Paypal somehow and messaging direct rather than messaging through eBay. 

sarahking87

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

OP is best seeing if they can get the buyers email from Paypal somehow and messaging direct rather than messaging through eBay. 

this contradicts the advice from eBay, who tell both buyers and sellers to handle chargeback disputes through them directly, and they liaise with the buyers' financial institution on your behalf

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

sarahking87 said:

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

OP is best seeing if they can get the buyers email from Paypal somehow and messaging direct rather than messaging through eBay. 

this contradicts the advice from eBay, who tell both buyers and sellers to handle chargeback disputes through them directly, and they liaise with the buyers' financial institution on your behalf

Out of interest do you have link for this? 

Been selling on eBay for 16 years and chargebacks have always been through Paypal (fortunately have nearly always been covered by Paypal seller protection)

theonlywayisup

sarahking87 said:

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

OP is best seeing if they can get the buyers email from Paypal somehow and messaging direct rather than messaging through eBay. 

this contradicts the advice from eBay, who tell both buyers and sellers to handle chargeback disputes through them directly, and they liaise with the buyers' financial institution on your behalf

Ebay don't handle payments, therefore they don't handle chargebacks.

lizzie201296

sarahking87 said:

lizzie201296 said:

sarahking87 said:

born_again said:

sarahking87 said:

No problem, although you should know a buyer can raise a chargeback via their CC company up to 12 months after the event. Some of these can be resolved by simply providing proof of postage

Strange to have a “not as described” chargeback claim after 5 months ,  I’m surprised the credit card company accepted that. Usually unauthorised card use is a more common, retrospective complaint 

The max time scale for a chargeback is 120 days from the date of debit in this case. Even PayPal is only 180 days.

I think the deadlines can be different for defective goods or not as described.
“ MasterCard chargeback code 4853 - Cardholder Dispute, Defective/Not as Described/Counterfeit. Up to 540 days.”

“Visa guidelines:

• Negotiations between the cardholder and merchant have been implemented and the attempt to resolve the dispute is ongoing
• The negotiations occurred within 120 days (but not more than 540 days) of the transaction processing date”

Surely both of these should still have to involve some sort of communication between buyer and seller. If the buyer had contacted me, either directly or through PayPal/eBay and attempted to resolve the supposed 'issue' I would have been more understanding/less skeptical. I would have probably said OK, show me photos that it is not as described, then challenged that 5 months is not a reasonable amount of time for clothing (it could easily have become damaged during the time they've been in possession of it). If they were still kicking up a fuss I would have said return it to me and I'll refund you, just to avoid an ongoing conflict. However, I would have done all of the above through the PayPal resolution centre so that it was all properly recorded and PayPal could mediate if necessary.

What they have done is file a chargeback without making any contact whatsoever, either to myself or to PayPal. Seems very odd that you can claim your money back without having to say a single word. What if I bought a brand new book and after 5 months of reading it and taking it around in my bag it had become dogeared and a bit battered....I could file a chargeback and just say 'item is not as described'. Well duh, it's not new anymore. Agh this is making me so mad! Such a stupid system!

the card provider has reviewed the case and agreed with the buyer that there was a problem. Frustrating, but factual.

Your dispute response, if you have the opportunity to do this through PayPal, only needs to include: 

1. Date of sale and payment
 2. How did you post it? (was this in line with what the buyer paid for on the auction?)

3. Do you have any proof of when it was sent?
4. Any proof of when it was received?

5. What was your eBay returns policy for this specific auction? Did you leave it as “returns not accepted”? ( If so, the buyer may have just gone straight to their card company on the basis that they can’t return. )

If you used an untracked economy service with Royal Mail, for example, their website says it can take up to 42 days.

I recently raised a chargeback dispute with my own credit card company, they told me it could take up to 6 weeks to investigate. 

If you want to get in contact with the buyer your only route is through eBay.

after several instances of mucking around with bogus claims on eBay, I rarely use it any more. I never ship internationally either. It is often more hassle than it’s worth- some people have to ruin it for everyone.

I agree with the international shipping - the buyer used a UK address for international shipment. Wasn't aware this was a thing (haven't used eBay in a while) - the address was some sort of depot/drop off in the UK. I hadn't listed it as open to international shipping and technically I didn't ship it internationally, I shipped it to the UK 'drop off'. All very odd.

I still haven't heard from the buyer, not expecting to! Contacted eBay, they basically said 'not our problem, talk to PayPal'. PayPal have just said 'nothing we can do, the bank is reviewing, we'll let you know'. Don't think there's anything more I can do - I've contacted all the relevant parties with the relevant information as you mentioned but ultimately, it seems to come down to my word against the buyers' and since they are claiming 'item not as described' (rather than item not as delivered), I can't seem to win. After 5 months, who's to know what the item is like now? They could have spent 5 months putting cigarettes out on it, and could upload a photo saying 'see, it's not as described!'. Sure, I can show a photo of how it looked when it left me, but who's to say I didn't take the photo years ago. Whole system seems stupid and incredibly skewed in favour of buyers. 

Put me in a right mood. Definitely won't be using eBay again! Not worth this sort of hassle. Thanks everyone for your help - I'll post back if anything happens (according to PayPal, even if it is resolved in my favour it can take 75 days to get the money back so...don't hold your breaths!)

lizzie201296

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

davidmcn said:

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

The threat of the police report may be enough alone to see the buyer pay up, particularly if they live in a small town. 

Even if there were prima facie evidence of a fraud taking place (which there isn't here) I can't see any law enforcement agencies taking an interest in something worth £50. Unless they're really bored.

Generally speaking it's a bluff. 

If the buyer lives in New York the police are probably busy, if they live in Sleepyville the police may take an interest, the buyer may know everyone in their town and not want their name tainted or they may do this regularly and cut their losses by repaying the OP to avoid getting caught. 

I'm not sure if this situation is classed a mail fraud, the buyer may not know either, again it's a bluff but it may well open the avenue of communication to at least find out what the problem was. 

OP is best seeing if they can get the buyers email from Paypal somehow and messaging direct rather than messaging through eBay. 

Thanks - got hold of their email address and sent them a polite but mildly menacing email just asking for some communication, obviously got no reply. Found their actual address on PayPal as well (I posted the item to a UK depot/drop off address) and they are indeed in NY, so I'm sure they've not been taken in by my mild British threat of the police! I googled them (feel like I'm turning into some sort of suburban PI) and found a couple of court cases they've been involved in over the years. All bankruptcy sort of things, unfortunately nothing to say 'this person is obviously a thief and a fraudster'. 

lizzie201296

sarahking87 said:

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

OP is best seeing if they can get the buyers email from Paypal somehow and messaging direct rather than messaging through eBay. 

this contradicts the advice from eBay, who tell both buyers and sellers to handle chargeback disputes through them directly, and they liaise with the buyers' financial institution on your behalf

The reply I got from eBay was:
'If a claim has already been opened, we can no longer step in and help as a seller you need to continue the claim on PayPal. eBay has a 30 days eBay Money Back Guarantee and as you can see its already more than 30 days. I know this is not the answer you're expecting but we do appreciate your kind understanding'.

In other words... 'not our problem, please go away'.

born_again

sarahking87 said:

born_again said:

sarahking87 said:

No problem, although you should know a buyer can raise a chargeback via their CC company up to 12 months after the event. Some of these can be resolved by simply providing proof of postage

Strange to have a “not as described” chargeback claim after 5 months ,  I’m surprised the credit card company accepted that. Usually unauthorised card use is a more common, retrospective complaint 

The max time scale for a chargeback is 120 days from the date of debit in this case. Even PayPal is only 180 days.

I think the deadlines can be different for defective goods or not as described.
“ MasterCard chargeback code 4853 - Cardholder Dispute, Defective/Not as Described/Counterfeit. Up to 540 days.”

“Visa guidelines:

• Negotiations between the cardholder and merchant have been implemented and the attempt to resolve the dispute is ongoing
• The negotiations occurred within 120 days (but not more than 540 days) of the transaction processing date”

540 days is the maximum time that a chargeback can be actioned in & only relates to future dated purchases. So you are looking at Holidays, events, furniture that has to be made etc. Not something that is sent the next day.
As the op's dispute was over 120 days after they were paid, then it has to be a PayPal dispute.