Anyone have experience with PayPal/eBay - please help!

theonlywayisup

As the op's dispute was over 120 days after they were paid, then it has to be a PayPal dispute. 

It is not a dispute, it is a chargeback.  They are very different. 

born_again

theonlywayisup said:

As the op's dispute was over 120 days after they were paid, then it has to be a PayPal dispute. 

It is not a dispute, it is a chargeback.  They are very different. 

A chargeback is via your debit/credit card. As I said has a max of 120 days to action.
If someone contests something direct with PayPal it is a dispute. Which has 180 days to action.
https://www.paypal.com/uk/smarthelp/PAYPAL_HELP_GUIDE/all-about-disputes-icf7

DCFC79

lizzie201296 said:

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

davidmcn said:

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

The threat of the police report may be enough alone to see the buyer pay up, particularly if they live in a small town. 

Even if there were prima facie evidence of a fraud taking place (which there isn't here) I can't see any law enforcement agencies taking an interest in something worth £50. Unless they're really bored.

Generally speaking it's a bluff. 

If the buyer lives in New York the police are probably busy, if they live in Sleepyville the police may take an interest, the buyer may know everyone in their town and not want their name tainted or they may do this regularly and cut their losses by repaying the OP to avoid getting caught. 

I'm not sure if this situation is classed a mail fraud, the buyer may not know either, again it's a bluff but it may well open the avenue of communication to at least find out what the problem was. 

OP is best seeing if they can get the buyers email from Paypal somehow and messaging direct rather than messaging through eBay. 

Thanks - got hold of their email address and sent them a polite but mildly menacing email just asking for some communication, obviously got no reply. Found their actual address on PayPal as well (I posted the item to a UK depot/drop off address) and they are indeed in NY, so I'm sure they've not been taken in by my mild British threat of the police! I googled them (feel like I'm turning into some sort of suburban PI) and found a couple of court cases they've been involved in over the years. All bankruptcy sort of things, unfortunately nothing to say 'this person is obviously a thief and a fraudster'. 

You conracted the police in NY ?
It wont cost anything will it.

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

born_again said:

theonlywayisup said:

As the op's dispute was over 120 days after they were paid, then it has to be a PayPal dispute. 

It is not a dispute, it is a chargeback.  They are very different. 

A chargeback is via your debit/credit card. As I said has a max of 120 days to action.
If someone contests something direct with PayPal it is a dispute. Which has 180 days to action.
https://www.paypal.com/uk/smarthelp/PAYPAL_HELP_GUIDE/all-about-disputes-icf7

A Paypal dispute should generally require the buyer to return (or destroy if fake) the goods, their dispute system for not as described doesn't act as a warranty so the Paypal would have to know the buyer was stating the goods were not as described pretty much when they first arrived (or for example something came to light later such as the item being taken to a store for repair and being declare fake but again Paypal would know the reason for the claim) and as Paypal act as the adjudicator they wouldn't be able to turn round to say we have no information and that's the end of it. 

I appreciate you know the time limits for various avenue to reclaim funds via a card or bank but are they the same for every bank and card provider in the world?  

Supersonos

sarahking87 said:

The mistake here is cutting eBay out of the equation and assuming the responsibility sits with PayPal, who are just the agent processing the payment. The terms for returns and disputes you should be looking at are eBays.

eBay will have a record of the auction and sale details even though it was 5 months ago. Assuming the buyer hasn’t deleted their eBay account, eBay can still raise a dispute and will act as an intermediary - seeking replies from both you and the buyer. If the buyer does not respond in a given timeframe (I think it is 30 days) you may be given an eBay fee credit and it’s as simple as that. 

Something similar happened to me last year where a UK buyer bought an expensive item from me. I sent it tracked , insured and signed for , and after c.40 days the buyer said the item hasn’t been received (there was tracked courier evidence to show it had been). As in your case, the money was taken from my account and the onus was on me to prove the buyer was acting unreasonably. 

eBay did , after a few weeks and several phone calls, agree that the item had been signed for and the buyer had acted unreasonably by waiting over a month to report a problem. I got my money back in the end. 

Something similar happened to me about 12 years ago.  I realised how rotten the eBay/PayPal system was, how easy it was to be a victim of fraud/buy stolen or counterfeit goods with no comeback and haven't used either service since.

theonlywayisup

born_again said:

theonlywayisup said:

As the op's dispute was over 120 days after they were paid, then it has to be a PayPal dispute. 

It is not a dispute, it is a chargeback.  They are very different. 

A chargeback is via your debit/credit card. As I said has a max of 120 days to action.
If someone contests something direct with PayPal it is a dispute. Which has 180 days to action.
https://www.paypal.com/uk/smarthelp/PAYPAL_HELP_GUIDE/all-about-disputes-icf7

As has been pointed out to you elsewhere, they are different.  A paypal dispute is not the same as a chargeback.  They are dealt with by Paypal differently because they offer different resolutions under different rules.   

But at least you now appreciate the 180 days is given by Paypal for a dispute process, a dispute is a SNAD or INR.   

born_again

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

born_again said:

theonlywayisup said:

As the op's dispute was over 120 days after they were paid, then it has to be a PayPal dispute. 

It is not a dispute, it is a chargeback.  They are very different. 

A chargeback is via your debit/credit card. As I said has a max of 120 days to action.
If someone contests something direct with PayPal it is a dispute. Which has 180 days to action.
https://www.paypal.com/uk/smarthelp/PAYPAL_HELP_GUIDE/all-about-disputes-icf7

A Paypal dispute should generally require the buyer to return (or destroy if fake) the goods, their dispute system for not as described doesn't act as a warranty so the Paypal would have to know the buyer was stating the goods were not as described pretty much when they first arrived (or for example something came to light later such as the item being taken to a store for repair and being declare fake but again Paypal would know the reason for the claim) and as Paypal act as the adjudicator they wouldn't be able to turn round to say we have no information and that's the end of it. 

I appreciate you know the time limits for various avenue to reclaim funds via a card or bank but are they the same for every bank and card provider in the world?  

If it;s Visa Or Mastercard. They are worldwide timescales. Amex, I have no idea, but would guess they are. Not going to have different regulations.

born_again

theonlywayisup said:

born_again said:

theonlywayisup said:

As the op's dispute was over 120 days after they were paid, then it has to be a PayPal dispute. 

It is not a dispute, it is a chargeback.  They are very different. 

A chargeback is via your debit/credit card. As I said has a max of 120 days to action.
If someone contests something direct with PayPal it is a dispute. Which has 180 days to action.
https://www.paypal.com/uk/smarthelp/PAYPAL_HELP_GUIDE/all-about-disputes-icf7

As has been pointed out to you elsewhere, they are different.  A paypal dispute is not the same as a chargeback.  They are dealt with by Paypal differently because they offer different resolutions under different rules.   

But at least you now appreciate the 180 days is given by Paypal for a dispute process, a dispute is a SNAD or INR.   

I know they are different. That is what I SAID.....

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

born_again said:

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

born_again said:

theonlywayisup said:

As the op's dispute was over 120 days after they were paid, then it has to be a PayPal dispute. 

It is not a dispute, it is a chargeback.  They are very different. 

A chargeback is via your debit/credit card. As I said has a max of 120 days to action.
If someone contests something direct with PayPal it is a dispute. Which has 180 days to action.
https://www.paypal.com/uk/smarthelp/PAYPAL_HELP_GUIDE/all-about-disputes-icf7

A Paypal dispute should generally require the buyer to return (or destroy if fake) the goods, their dispute system for not as described doesn't act as a warranty so the Paypal would have to know the buyer was stating the goods were not as described pretty much when they first arrived (or for example something came to light later such as the item being taken to a store for repair and being declare fake but again Paypal would know the reason for the claim) and as Paypal act as the adjudicator they wouldn't be able to turn round to say we have no information and that's the end of it. 

I appreciate you know the time limits for various avenue to reclaim funds via a card or bank but are they the same for every bank and card provider in the world?  

If it;s Visa Or Mastercard. They are worldwide timescales. Amex, I have no idea, but would guess they are. Not going to have different regulations.

It makes sense the big card providers have standard timeframes. 

With Paypal you can fund via card or a bank account, I've also had bank reversals over the years, these are different to chargebacks as Paypal doesn't charge their £14 fee for a bank reversal, although I've only ever had them for unauthorised transactions rather than not received/not as described. 

It's vague as I can't remember specifics but I also read something where a Paypal transaction was reversed beyond usual timeframes due to the payment being Paypal credit.  

From what OP has said I just can't see this being a Paypal Buyer Protection dispute. 

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

lizzie201296 said:

sarahking87 said:

lizzie201296 said:

sarahking87 said:

born_again said:

sarahking87 said:

No problem, although you should know a buyer can raise a chargeback via their CC company up to 12 months after the event. Some of these can be resolved by simply providing proof of postage

Strange to have a “not as described” chargeback claim after 5 months ,  I’m surprised the credit card company accepted that. Usually unauthorised card use is a more common, retrospective complaint 

The max time scale for a chargeback is 120 days from the date of debit in this case. Even PayPal is only 180 days.

I think the deadlines can be different for defective goods or not as described.
“ MasterCard chargeback code 4853 - Cardholder Dispute, Defective/Not as Described/Counterfeit. Up to 540 days.”

“Visa guidelines:

• Negotiations between the cardholder and merchant have been implemented and the attempt to resolve the dispute is ongoing
• The negotiations occurred within 120 days (but not more than 540 days) of the transaction processing date”

Surely both of these should still have to involve some sort of communication between buyer and seller. If the buyer had contacted me, either directly or through PayPal/eBay and attempted to resolve the supposed 'issue' I would have been more understanding/less skeptical. I would have probably said OK, show me photos that it is not as described, then challenged that 5 months is not a reasonable amount of time for clothing (it could easily have become damaged during the time they've been in possession of it). If they were still kicking up a fuss I would have said return it to me and I'll refund you, just to avoid an ongoing conflict. However, I would have done all of the above through the PayPal resolution centre so that it was all properly recorded and PayPal could mediate if necessary.

What they have done is file a chargeback without making any contact whatsoever, either to myself or to PayPal. Seems very odd that you can claim your money back without having to say a single word. What if I bought a brand new book and after 5 months of reading it and taking it around in my bag it had become dogeared and a bit battered....I could file a chargeback and just say 'item is not as described'. Well duh, it's not new anymore. Agh this is making me so mad! Such a stupid system!

the card provider has reviewed the case and agreed with the buyer that there was a problem. Frustrating, but factual.

Your dispute response, if you have the opportunity to do this through PayPal, only needs to include: 

1. Date of sale and payment
 2. How did you post it? (was this in line with what the buyer paid for on the auction?)

3. Do you have any proof of when it was sent?
4. Any proof of when it was received?

5. What was your eBay returns policy for this specific auction? Did you leave it as “returns not accepted”? ( If so, the buyer may have just gone straight to their card company on the basis that they can’t return. )

If you used an untracked economy service with Royal Mail, for example, their website says it can take up to 42 days.

I recently raised a chargeback dispute with my own credit card company, they told me it could take up to 6 weeks to investigate. 

If you want to get in contact with the buyer your only route is through eBay.

after several instances of mucking around with bogus claims on eBay, I rarely use it any more. I never ship internationally either. It is often more hassle than it’s worth- some people have to ruin it for everyone.

I agree with the international shipping - the buyer used a UK address for international shipment. Wasn't aware this was a thing (haven't used eBay in a while) - the address was some sort of depot/drop off in the UK. I hadn't listed it as open to international shipping and technically I didn't ship it internationally, I shipped it to the UK 'drop off'. All very odd.

When you list near the bottom with the postage options is a tick box for selling via the eBay Global Shipping Program. 

eBay is very helpful in ticking this on your behalf as it increases the odds of getting a sale and so them a commission. 

Generally speaking if you sell online from time to time such things can happen, it is very frustrating but is also generally a rare occurrence. 

If the buyer is in New York this may help, you should be able to search by street name or postcode:

www1.nyc.gov/site/nypd/bureaus/patrol/find-your-precinct.page

I'd message the buyer again to say you've found their local precinct which is at such and such address and are filing a police report if they don't respond.