Battery Electric Vehicle News / Enjoying the Transportation Revolution

Martyn1981

Article pointing to BEV buses in Kenya, and how good a choice they are, due to a highly RE grid, and nightime leccy excess, as well as the local emissions/pollution element.

Goes on to address the initiatives to help with the higher upfront cost of a BEV v's diesel bus, as many are privately owned.

Electric Buses In Kenya Create Greater Environmental Impact

Kenya currently provides 80% of its electricity from renewable energy and intends to increase this number to 100% by 2030. This means that a diesel bus replaced with an electric bus in Kenya does significantly more to reduce carbon emissions than one placed in a country more reliant on traditional energy sources. China, the global hub for electric buses, produces just over 50% of its electricity from non-fossil fuels. Chile, which has made the electrification of buses a significant part of its transition to renewable energy, is still less than 50%. Additionally, Kenya boasts one of the highest rate of public transport use in the world. The high usage levels of the buses combined with the high rate of renewable energy in the transmission grid means that an electric bus will provide a higher marginal reduction of CO2 emissions than an electric bus almost anywhere else in the world.

Grumpy_chap

Petriix said:

Either you're utilising the engine or you don't need it. 

It may not be that cut and dried.

When I had a Toyota Auris Hybrid (not plug in), it apparently worked on highway journeys so the car would decide what engine speed to use and would pick the optimum engine speed for efficiency and then add in extra power from the battery if required to allow the required speed to be maintained where the 'optimum efficiency engine speed' would not allow that to be achieved.  As a driver, there was no awareness of that battery assisting the engine (there was an option to see a "flow" display but it was not really useful if concentration on driving).

I assume that a PHEV would also have the ability to operate in ICE with battery assist and the larger battery may well be able to offer rather more efficiency benefit than the small battery in my regular hybrid.

JKenH said:

I have been trying to find the median car journey length but can only find the average which in 2019 was 8.4 miles. Statistically, the majority of journeys would be below this distance or and would therefore be well suited to the limited range of even the oldest PHEVs (even if you include the return leg). 

I looked this up only yesterday in the Motoring Forum (as a poster was challenging that the short average car journey that is mentioned only applied to EV and not to ICE).

Grumpy_chap said:

LightFlare said:

Maybe the data is that the majority of EV owners only do short trips

The data is for all cars, not just EV's.
It is available in the public domain, use the search term "National Travel Survey YEAR" to see the raw data collected by ONS. 
That is not presented in a pretty way, but it is shown simply at the following link:
https://www.nimblefins.co.uk/largest-car-insurance-companies/average-car-journey-uk
Average car journey less than 10 miles.
That data I have linked to is from 2019.  More recent data is available, but even 2022 still shows an impact from COVID (there were still some restrictions from the Omicron variant that ran into early 2022).  The 2023 survey when it is available in the latter part of next year may show whatever the new normal will be.

2019 seems to be the latest data set that can be considered reliable with no impact from COVID restrictions.  ONS has published up to 2022 data (released in September) but still references some lock-downs into early 2022.  I suppose by the end of next year, the 2023 data will be available and give the new normal - the impact of COVID may affect average journey length, or average annual mileage, or both.

1961Nick

JKenH said:

Grumpy_chap said:

Exiled_Tyke said:

My Dad's PHEV is averaging 71mpg since he got it which he wouldn't get anything like that out of an equivalent diesel. 

Is that powered solely on petrol / diesel, or is that fuel efficiency with some plugged in electricity also?
A reference to 71 mpg is incomplete if the energy input via the plug is not also considered.

Why take into account electricity from the plug when comparing CO2 emissions. The PHEV covers 71 miles with the emissions a diesel would produce to do 43 miles. Isn’t that a big saving in CO2 emissions? Or look at in another way. Putting 71PHEVs on the road is as effective as 28 BEVs and 43 diesels in terms of the amount of tailpipe CO2 produced. 

My friend with the 455 bhp Volvo V60 T8 has done 9560 miles & has a lifetime fuel economy of 72.1 mpg. By comparison, a Jaguar F-Pace SVR averages around 20mpg.

PHEVs do work in the right hands.

Grumpy_chap

1961Nick said:

a Jaguar iPace SVR averages around 20mpg.

I understood that the iPace was an EV.
Is there an ICE option also?

JKenH

Used BEV transactions double as second hand market goes green

Reflecting an increase in supply, demand for battery electric vehicles (BEVs) doubled in the quarter, reaching a record market share as volumes rose by 99.9% to 34,021 units. The boost now means BEVs represent 1.8% of the used market, up from 1.0% last year. Plug-in hybrids (PHEVs), and hybrids (HEVs) also grew, up 34.6%, and 46.4% respectively – resulting in combined plug-ins increasing by 70.9% to comprise 2.8% of the market. 

https://www.smmt.co.uk/2023/11/used-bev-transactions-double-as-second-hand-market-goes-green/

These latest used car figures from SMMT for BEV sales look good on the face of it, up 99.9% y-o-y. BEV sales are now working out at about 11.3k per month.

I was though a little disappointed. Looking back a couple of years to September 21, new BEV sales were 32.7k that month and 125k ytd so as yet used BEV sales volumes have not yet caught up with new BEV sales volumes. In the past we have put this down to a lack of used BEV supply but all through this last year used supply has exceeded demand hence the collapse in used BEV prices. Only very recently has that trend shown signs of reversing. 

We had also believed that some of the fall off in private new BEV sales was down to buyers switching to used BEVs as they were more attractive financially. We have seen a 17k increase in used BEV sales in the last 3 months which works out at about 6.7k extra used BEV sales monthly but how much of this is genuine growth in used sales and how much used BEVs stealing sales from the new car market? 

So far this year private buyers have accounted for 23.8% of BEV sales this year which is only 65.5% of the 36.3% share in the first half of 2022 (I can’t find figures for the rest of 2022). BEV sales to end of October stand at 262.5k of which 62.5 k were to private buyers. Had private buyers maintained a similar level of interest to last year we would have seen 95.4K sales to private buyers by now - that’s an extra 33k or an average of 3.3k per month.

My best guess therefore is that of the 6.7k per month extra used BEV sales we have seen this year around half is new growth in the used BEV market and the other half is stealing sales from the new BEV market. 

It is entirely natural that as a better choice becomes available in the used BEV market that buyers who previously could only find a new BEV that met their needs can now buy a suitable used model at better price. This development though has probably knocked around 10% off new BEV sales which, had the previous private buyer interest been maintained, would now stand at around 18% of total sales ytd than the 16.3% it currently is.

michaels

Also a I mentioned, the fact that private buyers don't get the effective discount that comes form the BIK saving also skews the private market towards ued cars where the price already reflects the BIK discount.

1961Nick

Grumpy_chap said:

1961Nick said:

a Jaguar iPace SVR averages around 20mpg.

I understood that the iPace was an EV.
Is there an ICE option also?

Well spotted... Should have written F-Pace.

Petriix

I don't see any compelling evidence that PHEVS (or just hybrids) actually do reduce CO2. I understand that they could but they mostly don't. It's extremely wishful thinking to imagine that they run super efficiently; many models are badly designed so that the only way to heat the cabin or to provide sufficient acceleration is through running the engine. They are less efficient in full electric mode than EVs and the extra weight and complexity of carrying two drive trains negates many of the benefits of a full EV.

In my opinion they solve purely psychological problems, encouraging people to waste energy and cause pollution for the sake of 'peace of mind'. The real barriers to EV ownership remain initial cost and access to cheap charging. Range and public charging infrastructure are mosley red herrings. 

JKenH

Petriix said:

I don't see any compelling evidence that PHEVS (or just hybrids) actually do reduce CO2. I understand that they could but they mostly don't. It's extremely wishful thinking to imagine that they run super efficiently; many models are badly designed so that the only way to heat the cabin or to provide sufficient acceleration is through running the engine. They are less efficient in full electric mode than EVs and the extra weight and complexity of carrying two drive trains negates many of the benefits of a full EV.

In my opinion they solve purely psychological problems, encouraging people to waste energy and cause pollution for the sake of 'peace of mind'. The real barriers to EV ownership remain initial cost and access to cheap charging. Range and public charging infrastructure are mosley red herrings. 

As long as you understand they could reduce CO2 you will be able to understand why some of us believe they do reduce CO2. I think a lot of the negativity about PHEVs goes back to the stories we heard 5 or 6 years ago about people getting them for tax/BIK reasons and not plugging them in and some people just can’t get past that. Also the way the WLTP mpg is calculated produces figures that exaggerates the efficiency of PHEVs in normal use (sometimes the WLTP figures are 200mpg+) and that, having been well reported, is damaging for credibility even though it is achieved in the test conditions. Having said all that there is still a lot of anecdotal evidence that in the right circumstances they do save (fossil) fuel/CO2. 

Nick, Mart and @Exiled_Tyke have all given examples of people they know who are effectively reducing their fuel consumption (and ipso facto their CO2 emissions) with a PHEV and I have posted a YouTube link showing how effective they can be. If you choose not to believe that and argue against the claimed CO2 savings then that is your prerogative but equally many others firmly believe PHEVs are better than plain vanilla ICE cars for the environment. Fine, you would never buy a PHEV but others will look at the evidence and reach a different conclusion.

You say the “real barriers to EV ownership remain initial cost and access to cheap charging. Range and public charging infrastructure are mosley red herrings”. Progress won’t be made as long as the most strident voices are those of EV owners saying these aren’t really problems. It is a bit like a business only looking at positive reviews and ignoring bad reviews of its product and wondering why sales are falling.

The reason I gave up on BEVs, and I assure you I was committed at the outset, is that I was let down too many times by the woeful charging infrastructure. I am sure I won’t be the last to suffer that fate. That’s not something you might become aware of until you have done a few public charges and find yourself continually being let down but the stories are now out in the popular press and on the EV forums many join before taking the plunge into EV ownership. 

Exiled_Tyke

Grumpy_chap said:

When I had a Toyota Auris Hybrid (not plug in), it apparently worked on highway journeys so the car would decide what engine speed to use and would pick the optimum engine speed for efficiency and then add in extra power from the battery if required to allow the required speed to be maintained where the 'optimum efficiency engine speed' would not allow that to be achieved.  As a driver, there was no awareness of that battery assisting the engine (there was an option to see a "flow" display but it was not really useful if concentration on driving).

I assume that a PHEV would also have the ability to operate in ICE with battery assist and the larger battery may well be able to offer rather more efficiency benefit than the small battery in my regular hybrid.

PHEVs do work in the same way.  My Dad's car (again) can be set to EV mode which avoids using the ICE unless absolutely necessary and (obviously) uses the battery up.  Short daily commutes and overnight charging gives a pretty full EV experience.    But there is also hybrid mode which pretty much works like a plug-in. So on long drives it does exactly what you describe - deciding the best combination of ICE and battery. 

My personal experience of PHEV owners (including some company car drivers) is that have chosen them because they do want to use them responsibly.  

With heated seats and steering wheel using the engine to heat the car is rarely needed.  

And finally to illustrate the need for a PHEV consider the driver who most of the time has a local commute but then occasionally needs to drive across the country.   Finishing work at 5pm with a 200 mile drive ahead and needing to find a charger on the way home would be enough to put anybody off a full EV as things currently stand.