Battery Electric Vehicle News / Enjoying the Transportation Revolution

EricMears

JKenH said:

I am sure all of that is true, Eric, but you are being selective. You quoted the figure of 80+ppu to make your case against PHEVs, then to make out a better case for BEVs you opted to use 7.5ppu or 30ppu. My example simply reused the single figure (80+ppu) you chose for charging PHEVs and for a direct comparison applied it to a BEV owner in the same situation. 

Of course I'm being 'selective' - just to make the point that the original article was very selective and your example was just that and shouldn't even be considered as 'typical' 

JKenH

Jeez, Eric! There is selective and selective. I post an article from a respected motoring magazine which has reviewed a car over several months and thousands of miles and you say I am being selective. On that basis every article that gets linked on here is selective. 

You say the article I posted “shouldn’t even be considered as typical”. It covered thousands of miles of motoring, not just a single trip. It covered consumption usage when charging was available and when it wasn’t. On holiday and at work. Should I dismiss Mart’s or Nick’s reports of their Tesla consumption after tens of thousands of miles as not typical? No. 

I think the basic problem is that the article about the PHEV Astra confirmed what Mart, ExiledTyke and Nick had already said that with the right usage pattern a PHEV can save both money and emissions. You don’t like that, so introduce an argument that the PHEV costs would be different if the driver had charged at 80+ppu.  (Not 7.5ppu, 30 ppu, 50mpg or even 75ppu but the highest figure anyone could possibly pay and add + to suggest it could be even more). Of course a PHEV would cost more to run charged at 80+ppu but who, with a car that will do 60mpg on petrol and cost about 11/12p a mile and can be filled up in 5 minutes, is going to use electricity that costs them twice as much per mile? It was a ridiculous comment. 

When I point out, on a 650 mile holiday a BEV driver would also need to fill up at public chargers and quote the rate of 80+ppu you used for PHEVs then suddenly for the BEV driver the car can magically be filled up at 7.5 or 30ppu. That is being selective. If you are going to choose an electricity rate to make a point against PHEVs then accept you need to use the same rate when comparing with BEVs.  

thevilla

JKenH said:

EricMears said:

JKenH said:

The 650 miles the road tester did in the week when he was in a holiday cottage and couldn’t charge averaged 61mpg. The cost there in petrol would be around £73. The average EV user would probably have managed about a third of those 650 miles on his battery (say 220miles @3.2mpk x7.5p = £4.81 plus 430 miles @ 3.2mpg x80p = £107.90 Total £112.71. At almost £50 less to take the same holiday than in an EV it’s a pretty good case made for the PHEV. 

No wonder EV drivers like to keep within their car’s range.

It's an even better case for a BEV -  if you can avoid the most expensive outlets.  At one recent AirBnB I was able to charge at 7.5ppu although 30ppu for a stay without specialist EV charging is more usual.  And of course some users might even be able to charge gratis at their destination to get a free ride home.

I am sure, in an ideal world, all of that is true, Eric, but you are being selective. You quoted the figure of 80+ppu to make your case against PHEVs, then to make out a better case for BEVs you opted to use 7.5ppu or 30ppu. My example simply reused the single figure (80+ppu) you chose for charging PHEVs and for a direct comparison applied it to a BEV owner in the same situation. 

Now back to the real world.

Caravan parks 'can't cope' with rising numbers of electric cars

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bristol-64901247

Electric Car Charging Risks at Holiday Homes

What are the insurance implications?

The factors above highlight the potential increased fire and liability risks when using electric vehicle chargers, which could lead to significant loss, damage and injury. We strongly recommend that you speak to your insurer with regards to EV charging at your holiday home and how this affects cover.

A Schofields policy does not cover loss, damage or liability caused by the usage of electrical vehicle charging points or the charging of electrical vehicles.

Make your EV charging rules clear to your guests

Your booking terms and conditions are key to managing and mitigating the risks associated with electric vehicle charging at your holiday cottage.

Your terms and conditions should explicitly forbid the charging of EVs via a domestic charger at the property. Make your guests agree to your T&Cs before the booking is confirmed and repeat them in your guestbook.

Also, make sure your guests know the location of local charging points that they can use.

https://www.schofields.ltd.uk/blog/6556/electric-vehicle-charging/

The 18 month old schofield article seems confused between ev chargers and granny charging.

JKenH

thevilla said:

JKenH said:

EricMears said:

JKenH said:

The 650 miles the road tester did in the week when he was in a holiday cottage and couldn’t charge averaged 61mpg. The cost there in petrol would be around £73. The average EV user would probably have managed about a third of those 650 miles on his battery (say 220miles @3.2mpk x7.5p = £4.81 plus 430 miles @ 3.2mpg x80p = £107.90 Total £112.71. At almost £50 less to take the same holiday than in an EV it’s a pretty good case made for the PHEV. 

No wonder EV drivers like to keep within their car’s range.

It's an even better case for a BEV -  if you can avoid the most expensive outlets.  At one recent AirBnB I was able to charge at 7.5ppu although 30ppu for a stay without specialist EV charging is more usual.  And of course some users might even be able to charge gratis at their destination to get a free ride home.

I am sure, in an ideal world, all of that is true, Eric, but you are being selective. You quoted the figure of 80+ppu to make your case against PHEVs, then to make out a better case for BEVs you opted to use 7.5ppu or 30ppu. My example simply reused the single figure (80+ppu) you chose for charging PHEVs and for a direct comparison applied it to a BEV owner in the same situation. 

Now back to the real world.

Caravan parks 'can't cope' with rising numbers of electric cars

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bristol-64901247

Electric Car Charging Risks at Holiday Homes

What are the insurance implications?

The factors above highlight the potential increased fire and liability risks when using electric vehicle chargers, which could lead to significant loss, damage and injury. We strongly recommend that you speak to your insurer with regards to EV charging at your holiday home and how this affects cover.

A Schofields policy does not cover loss, damage or liability caused by the usage of electrical vehicle charging points or the charging of electrical vehicles.

Make your EV charging rules clear to your guests

Your booking terms and conditions are key to managing and mitigating the risks associated with electric vehicle charging at your holiday cottage.

Your terms and conditions should explicitly forbid the charging of EVs via a domestic charger at the property. Make your guests agree to your T&Cs before the booking is confirmed and repeat them in your guestbook.

Also, make sure your guests know the location of local charging points that they can use.

https://www.schofields.ltd.uk/blog/6556/electric-vehicle-charging/

The 18 month old schofield article seems confused between ev chargers and granny charging.

Do they? I hadn’t noticed. They just seem to talk about granny chargers. Do you think in some way this invalidates their  comments?

EricMears

JKenH said:

Jeez, Eric! There is selective and selective. I post an article from a respected motoring magazine which has reviewed a car over several months and thousands of miles and you say I am being selective. On that basis every article that gets linked on here is selective. 

You say the article I posted “shouldn’t even be considered as typical”. It covered thousands of miles of motoring, not just a single trip. It covered consumption usage when charging was available and when it wasn’t. On holiday and at work. Should I dismiss Mart’s or Nick’s reports of their Tesla consumption after tens of thousands of miles as not typical? No. 

I think the basic problem is that the article about the PHEV Astra confirmed what Mart, ExiledTyke and Nick had already said that with the right usage pattern a PHEV can save both money and emissions. You don’t like that, so introduce an argument that the PHEV costs would be different if the driver had charged at 80+ppu.  (Not 7.5ppu, 30 ppu, 50mpg or even 75ppu but the highest figure anyone could possibly pay and add + to suggest it could be even more). Of course a PHEV would cost more to run charged at 80+ppu but who, with a car that will do 60mpg on petrol and cost about 11/12p a mile and can be filled up in 5 minutes, is going to use electricity that costs them twice as much per mile? It was a ridiculous comment. 

When I point out, on a 650 mile holiday a BEV driver would also need to fill up at public chargers and quote the rate of 80+ppu you used for PHEVs then suddenly for the BEV driver the car can magically be filled up at 7.5 or 30ppu. That is being selective. If you are going to choose an electricity rate to make a point against PHEVs then accept you need to use the same rate when comparing with BEVs.  

Your article appeared to be calculating mpg by ignoring the cost of any electricity used.  On that basis,  since I don't buy any liquid fuel, perhaps I could report zero mpg.

I didn't say he would have to use electricity at 80+ ppu ,  I said that IF he had done that it would make a huge difference to his costings.  And 80ppu isn't "the highest figure anyone could possibly pay" : Instavolt charge 85ppu and there may well be others at 80+.  I've already made it clear that by planning where you recharge,  savings can be made just as careful ICE drivers would avoid topping up at MSAs

JKenH

EricMears said:

JKenH said:

Jeez, Eric! There is selective and selective. I post an article from a respected motoring magazine which has reviewed a car over several months and thousands of miles and you say I am being selective. On that basis every article that gets linked on here is selective. 

You say the article I posted “shouldn’t even be considered as typical”. It covered thousands of miles of motoring, not just a single trip. It covered consumption usage when charging was available and when it wasn’t. On holiday and at work. Should I dismiss Mart’s or Nick’s reports of their Tesla consumption after tens of thousands of miles as not typical? No. 

I think the basic problem is that the article about the PHEV Astra confirmed what Mart, ExiledTyke and Nick had already said that with the right usage pattern a PHEV can save both money and emissions. You don’t like that, so introduce an argument that the PHEV costs would be different if the driver had charged at 80+ppu.  (Not 7.5ppu, 30 ppu, 50mpg or even 75ppu but the highest figure anyone could possibly pay and add + to suggest it could be even more). Of course a PHEV would cost more to run charged at 80+ppu but who, with a car that will do 60mpg on petrol and cost about 11/12p a mile and can be filled up in 5 minutes, is going to use electricity that costs them twice as much per mile? It was a ridiculous comment. 

When I point out, on a 650 mile holiday a BEV driver would also need to fill up at public chargers and quote the rate of 80+ppu you used for PHEVs then suddenly for the BEV driver the car can magically be filled up at 7.5 or 30ppu. That is being selective. If you are going to choose an electricity rate to make a point against PHEVs then accept you need to use the same rate when comparing with BEVs.  

Your article appeared to be calculating mpg by ignoring the cost of any electricity used.  On that basis,  since I don't buy any liquid fuel, perhaps I could report zero mpg.

I didn't say he would have to use electricity at 80+ ppu ,  I said that IF he had done that it would make a huge difference to his costings.  And 80ppu isn't "the highest figure anyone could possibly pay" : Instavolt charge 85ppu and there may well be others at 80+.  I've already made it clear that by planning where you recharge,  savings can be made just as careful ICE drivers would avoid topping up at MSAs

I think you will find WLTP ignore the cost of electricity when calculating mpg. You could report zero mpg but you would be doing BEVs a disservice as this would suggest they are less efficient than PHEVs or even ICE cars.

I acknowledge your use of IF. That is the beauty of the PHEV. It doesn’t have to be filled up with expensive electricity when the battery is empty and the driver is miles from home. 

JKenH

EricMears said:

JKenH said:

Jeez, Eric! There is selective and selective. I post an article from a respected motoring magazine which has reviewed a car over several months and thousands of miles and you say I am being selective. On that basis every article that gets linked on here is selective. 

You say the article I posted “shouldn’t even be considered as typical”. It covered thousands of miles of motoring, not just a single trip. It covered consumption usage when charging was available and when it wasn’t. On holiday and at work. Should I dismiss Mart’s or Nick’s reports of their Tesla consumption after tens of thousands of miles as not typical? No. 

I think the basic problem is that the article about the PHEV Astra confirmed what Mart, ExiledTyke and Nick had already said that with the right usage pattern a PHEV can save both money and emissions. You don’t like that, so introduce an argument that the PHEV costs would be different if the driver had charged at 80+ppu.  (Not 7.5ppu, 30 ppu, 50mpg or even 75ppu but the highest figure anyone could possibly pay and add + to suggest it could be even more). Of course a PHEV would cost more to run charged at 80+ppu but who, with a car that will do 60mpg on petrol and cost about 11/12p a mile and can be filled up in 5 minutes, is going to use electricity that costs them twice as much per mile? It was a ridiculous comment. 

When I point out, on a 650 mile holiday a BEV driver would also need to fill up at public chargers and quote the rate of 80+ppu you used for PHEVs then suddenly for the BEV driver the car can magically be filled up at 7.5 or 30ppu. That is being selective. If you are going to choose an electricity rate to make a point against PHEVs then accept you need to use the same rate when comparing with BEVs.  

Your article appeared to be calculating mpg by ignoring the cost of any electricity used.  On that basis,  since I don't buy any liquid fuel, perhaps I could report zero mpg.

I didn't say he would have to use electricity at 80+ ppu ,  I said that IF he had done that it would make a huge difference to his costings.  And 80ppu isn't "the highest figure anyone could possibly pay" : Instavolt charge 85ppu and there may well be others at 80+.  I've already made it clear that by planning where you recharge,  savings can be made just as careful ICE drivers would avoid topping up at MSAs

Eric, I owe you an apology. I am a bit out of touch with the cost of rapid charging so had a look to see how much it does cost and got quite a shock. I don’t ever remember paying over 50ppu as my last rapid charge was in September 2022 IIRC. 80+p is not uncommon nowadays it would seem. These figures are from late September. I wonder if Shell and BP Pulse are keeping prices high to encourage EV drivers to switch back to petrol. It seems the cheapest non subscription service is Tesla at 77ppu. I suspect there may be some cheaper TOU chargers.

https://www.whatcar.com/news/how-much-does-it-cost-to-charge-an-electric-car/n21009

The trend is upwards according to ZapMap but I thought I read somewhere prices were about to fall.



https://www.zap-map.com/ev-stats/charging-price-index

thevilla

JKenH said:

thevilla said:

JKenH said:

EricMears said:

JKenH said:

The 650 miles the road tester did in the week when he was in a holiday cottage and couldn’t charge averaged 61mpg. The cost there in petrol would be around £73. The average EV user would probably have managed about a third of those 650 miles on his battery (say 220miles @3.2mpk x7.5p = £4.81 plus 430 miles @ 3.2mpg x80p = £107.90 Total £112.71. At almost £50 less to take the same holiday than in an EV it’s a pretty good case made for the PHEV. 

No wonder EV drivers like to keep within their car’s range.

It's an even better case for a BEV -  if you can avoid the most expensive outlets.  At one recent AirBnB I was able to charge at 7.5ppu although 30ppu for a stay without specialist EV charging is more usual.  And of course some users might even be able to charge gratis at their destination to get a free ride home.

I am sure, in an ideal world, all of that is true, Eric, but you are being selective. You quoted the figure of 80+ppu to make your case against PHEVs, then to make out a better case for BEVs you opted to use 7.5ppu or 30ppu. My example simply reused the single figure (80+ppu) you chose for charging PHEVs and for a direct comparison applied it to a BEV owner in the same situation. 

Now back to the real world.

Caravan parks 'can't cope' with rising numbers of electric cars

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bristol-64901247

Electric Car Charging Risks at Holiday Homes

What are the insurance implications?

The factors above highlight the potential increased fire and liability risks when using electric vehicle chargers, which could lead to significant loss, damage and injury. We strongly recommend that you speak to your insurer with regards to EV charging at your holiday home and how this affects cover.

A Schofields policy does not cover loss, damage or liability caused by the usage of electrical vehicle charging points or the charging of electrical vehicles.

Make your EV charging rules clear to your guests

Your booking terms and conditions are key to managing and mitigating the risks associated with electric vehicle charging at your holiday cottage.

Your terms and conditions should explicitly forbid the charging of EVs via a domestic charger at the property. Make your guests agree to your T&Cs before the booking is confirmed and repeat them in your guestbook.

Also, make sure your guests know the location of local charging points that they can use.

https://www.schofields.ltd.uk/blog/6556/electric-vehicle-charging/

The 18 month old schofield article seems confused between ev chargers and granny charging.

Do they? I hadn’t noticed. They just seem to talk about granny chargers. Do you think in some way this invalidates their  comments?

"Schofields policy does not cover loss, damage or liability caused by the usage of electrical vehicle charging points or the charging of electrical vehicles."

Is an EV charging point the same as a 3 pin socket?  Not in my mind.

Edit. I can understand trying to prevent random granny chargers especially in 100 yr old cottages!

EricMears

JKenH said:

Eric, I owe you an apology. I am a bit out of touch with the cost of rapid charging so had a look to see how much it does cost and got quite a shock. I don’t ever remember paying over 50ppu as my last rapid charge was in September 2022 IIRC. 80+p is not uncommon nowadays it would seem. These figures are from late September. I wonder if Shell and BP Pulse are keeping prices high to encourage EV drivers to switch back to petrol. It seems the cheapest non subscription service is Tesla at 77ppu. I suspect there may be some cheaper TOU chargers.

Indeed, the 80+ ppu is pretty unbelievable !  However,  I'd checked a few prices before posting.  Your figures from late September are already out of date : they quote  Instavolt at 75ppu but current price is 85ppu.  Ionity @74ppu is (sort of) correct but they offer discounts to all sorts of schemes (I use the Octopus scheme which offers Ionity @ 61ppu).

But with careful planning it's possible to avoid the worst excesses.  In a recent trip to Cornwall,  we broke our outward  journey in Gloucs where an AirBnB offered charging @ 30ppu then arrived without needing to recharge en route and able to  charge at destination for 25ppu.  Coming home we diverted to Hereford but had topped battery up at Ionity, Magor for 61ppu so got home without any further en route charging then filled battery up @ 7.5ppu.  

Complete trip was 881 miles with cost/mile of 7.85p  instead of my 'normal' cost of just under 3ppm.  If we'd still got our diesel Volvo trip would have been at 50mpg or around 15p/mile.   A PHEV would need to do around 100mpg (and get any electrical charging gratis) to match my Cornish trip   or something in the order of 500mpg to match my normal usage.

EricMears

thevilla said:

(in reply to "The 18 month old schofield article seems confused between ev chargers and granny charging."

Do they? I hadn’t noticed. They just seem to talk about granny chargers. Do you think in some way this invalidates their  comments?

"Schofields policy does not cover loss, damage or liability caused by the usage of electrical vehicle charging points or the charging of electrical vehicles."

Is an EV charging point the same as a 3 pin socket?  Not in my mind.

Edit. I can understand trying to prevent random granny chargers especially in 100 yr old cottages!

I haven't got any holiday cottages to rent but if I had,  I'd be avoiding Schofields  !   

A properly installed 13A socket shouldn't burst into flames just because a 'granny lead' has been plugged in.  Can appreciate the point about a hundred year old cottage but one might expect any electrical work in one of them to comply with modern standards and be tested before being offered to rent. A 3kW fan heater left running overnight in an otherwise unheated building would be a considerably greater risk than a 'granny lead'.

And if a 'proper' 7kW EV charging point had been installed in any property there shouldn't be any reason for an insurance company to decline to offer cover.