Battery Electric Vehicle News / Enjoying the Transportation Revolution

1961Nick

JKenH said:

Jeez, Eric! There is selective and selective. I post an article from a respected motoring magazine which has reviewed a car over several months and thousands of miles and you say I am being selective. On that basis every article that gets linked on here is selective. 

You say the article I posted “shouldn’t even be considered as typical”. It covered thousands of miles of motoring, not just a single trip. It covered consumption usage when charging was available and when it wasn’t. On holiday and at work. Should I dismiss Mart’s or Nick’s reports of their Tesla consumption after tens of thousands of miles as not typical? No. 

I think the basic problem is that the article about the PHEV Astra confirmed what Mart, ExiledTyke and Nick had already said that with the right usage pattern a PHEV can save both money and emissions. You don’t like that, so introduce an argument that the PHEV costs would be different if the driver had charged at 80+ppu.  (Not 7.5ppu, 30 ppu, 50mpg or even 75ppu but the highest figure anyone could possibly pay and add + to suggest it could be even more). Of course a PHEV would cost more to run charged at 80+ppu but who, with a car that will do 60mpg on petrol and cost about 11/12p a mile and can be filled up in 5 minutes, is going to use electricity that costs them twice as much per mile? It was a ridiculous comment. 

When I point out, on a 650 mile holiday a BEV driver would also need to fill up at public chargers and quote the rate of 80+ppu you used for PHEVs then suddenly for the BEV driver the car can magically be filled up at 7.5 or 30ppu. That is being selective. If you are going to choose an electricity rate to make a point against PHEVs then accept you need to use the same rate when comparing with BEVs.  

My friend with a PHEV doesn't factor the cost of charging it because ownership has enabled him to have Intelligent Octopus & the saving on domestic electricity through load shifting is greater than the cost of charging the car.

I did a quick calculation & it seems quite plausible.  

Martyn1981

EricMears said:

JKenH said:

Eric, I owe you an apology. I am a bit out of touch with the cost of rapid charging so had a look to see how much it does cost and got quite a shock. I don’t ever remember paying over 50ppu as my last rapid charge was in September 2022 IIRC. 80+p is not uncommon nowadays it would seem. These figures are from late September. I wonder if Shell and BP Pulse are keeping prices high to encourage EV drivers to switch back to petrol. It seems the cheapest non subscription service is Tesla at 77ppu. I suspect there may be some cheaper TOU chargers.

Indeed, the 80+ ppu is pretty unbelievable !  However,  I'd checked a few prices before posting.  Your figures from late September are already out of date : they quote  Instavolt at 75ppu but current price is 85ppu.  Ionity @74ppu is (sort of) correct but they offer discounts to all sorts of schemes (I use the Octopus scheme which offers Ionity @ 61ppu).

But with careful planning it's possible to avoid the worst excesses.  In a recent trip to Cornwall,  we broke our outward  journey in Gloucs where an AirBnB offered charging @ 30ppu then arrived without needing to recharge en route and able to  charge at destination for 25ppu.  Coming home we diverted to Hereford but had topped battery up at Ionity, Magor for 61ppu so got home without any further en route charging then filled battery up @ 7.5ppu.  

Complete trip was 881 miles with cost/mile of 7.85p  instead of my 'normal' cost of just under 3ppm.  If we'd still got our diesel Volvo trip would have been at 50mpg or around 15p/mile.   A PHEV would need to do around 100mpg (and get any electrical charging gratis) to match my Cornish trip   or something in the order of 500mpg to match my normal usage.

Unfortunatley there does seem to be a two tier system in the UK, Tesla and everyone else. Just checked a few locations, near me (Cardiff) 35p/kWh, and further afield Leigh Delamere 36p, Carmarthen 38p, and all 47p peak (4pm to 8pm). If it helps, as mentioned before, a friend used them for non-Tesla, pay as you go, at 53p, back when the Tesla price was ~40p (August(ish)).

Not far off normal domestic daytime prices, especially after allowing for the 20% (not 5%) VAT rate.

JKenH

There really is no excuse for the very high rates charged by the likes of Shell and BP Pulse when commercial rates have fallen so substantially.



https://www.aquaswitch.co.uk/business-electricity-prices/

Edit: perhaps the occasional rapid user is not particularly price sensitive. I wasn’t when I had an EV although the prices then were much lower across the board. For me availability on my route was the driver behind my choice. I was usually so relieved to find a working available charger that I didn’t worry about the price. Those who use rapids regularly are most probably Tesla drivers anyway. 

EricMears

1961Nick said:

My friend with a PHEV doesn't factor the cost of charging it because ownership has enabled him to have Intelligent Octopus & the saving on domestic electricity through load shifting is greater than the cost of charging the car.

I did a quick calculation & it seems quite plausible.  

An interesting approach !

When I compare actual costs on IOG with their flat rate 'flexible' account my savings are also more than I spend on charging the car.  Perhaps I should claim completely free motoring apart from the occasional rapid charge 200+ miles from home ?  

Grumpy_chap

EricMears said:

1961Nick said:

My friend with a PHEV doesn't factor the cost of charging it because ownership has enabled him to have Intelligent Octopus & the saving on domestic electricity through load shifting is greater than the cost of charging the car.

I did a quick calculation & it seems quite plausible.  

An interesting approach !

When I compare actual costs on IOG with their flat rate 'flexible' account my savings are also more than I spend on charging the car.  Perhaps I should claim completely free motoring apart from the occasional rapid charge 200+ miles from home ?  

That is a flawed approach, though.
There remains a cost of charging the car.
If the car was sold, you'd stay on the same tariff.

EricMears

Grumpy_chap said:

That is a flawed approach, though.
There remains a cost of charging the car.
If the car was sold, you'd stay on the same tariff.

Of course it is !  (My contribution was pure hyperbole.)

I don't think IOG is (or would remain) available to non EV owners.

QrizB

Grumpy_chap said:

If the car was sold, you'd stay on the same tariff.

Well, you shouldn't remain on the same tariff, as owning a compatible EV is one of the prerequisites in the T&C.
You should tell Octopus that you've sold the car and they'll move you to a non-EV tariff.

1961Nick

Grumpy_chap said:

EricMears said:

1961Nick said:

My friend with a PHEV doesn't factor the cost of charging it because ownership has enabled him to have Intelligent Octopus & the saving on domestic electricity through load shifting is greater than the cost of charging the car.

I did a quick calculation & it seems quite plausible.  

An interesting approach !

When I compare actual costs on IOG with their flat rate 'flexible' account my savings are also more than I spend on charging the car.  Perhaps I should claim completely free motoring apart from the occasional rapid charge 200+ miles from home ?  

That is a flawed approach, though.
There remains a cost of charging the car.
If the car was sold, you'd stay on the same tariff.

I believe you have to do one smart charge a month to be sure of remaining on the tariff.

... which reminds me, I haven't done November's yet!

EricMears

1961Nick said:

I believe you have to do one smart charge a month to be sure of remaining on the tariff.

..which reminds me, I haven't done November's yet!

I don't think that (original) condition still applies although suspect there might be other ways of checking that a car is being charged sometimes.

Martyn1981

1961Nick said:

If PHEVs were all fitted with fairly inadequate combustion engines, then there would be an incentive to overnight charge them.

A 2 tonne SUV with a 100bhp combustion engine wouldn't be much fun but it would get you to your destination. Add 200bhp of electrical energy to the mix & you've got a very capable vehicle.

I've seen similar comments in the past on some articles and other forums. I think it's a good idea, but might not be too popular with some.

However it (finally) dawned on me, that what you are almost describing is a BEV Rx (range extender). They come with a small ICE that generates leccy for the motor/battery, and doesn't drive the wheels. This would tend to have the same result, as the available power is reduced once the batt is empty, and limited to the kW output of the Rx.

For longer trips, a mix of batt and Rx can usually be used, so as to stretch out the battery (and max power availability), if so desired. The beauty of a Rx is that the ICE runs at peak efficiency, unlike in a PHEV. So possibly a better solution, and an even better way to serve those teetering on the edge between a BEV and PHEV. But not much choice, probably need legislation to shift production/supply from PHEV to BEV Rx.

Leading me to, the US and their pickups. We already have the Rivian PU, selling well, at the higher (luxury?) end, and the Ford F-150 Lightning, not selling well now, since prices went up. Obviously the Tesla Cybertruck launching later this month, but won't scale up to high production (200k to 250k annualised) till late 2024 or later.

But constant criticism in the US, where PU's do tend to be used, by some, for heavy work and towing, is the range under load. So Dodge (Stellantis) will release a 500 mile huge batt model, and also a smaller batt 145 mile model, with a Rx. Have to say, by Rx standards, Dodge has gone supersized (oversized?) with a 3.6l V6, rather than the more common small 3cyl units, such as in the new London taxi's - 1.5l turbo 3cyl. Maybe they need to make sure buyers have confidence, before future finetuning?

[Edited loads of spelling errors. M.]

Ramcharger Takes A Belt And Suspenders Approach To Electric Pickup Trucks

There are two kinds of pickup truck drivers — wannabe cowboys who pride themselves on looking powerful behind the wheel and those who make a living by hauling stuff and towing stuff. Ram is conflicted about how to jump into the EV revolution with its pickup trucks, so it has decided to hedge its bets with the all new Ramcharger.

Last spring, Ram responded to the Ford F-150 Lightning and Chevy Silverado EV by saying it too would have a battery powered pickup truck coming along soon — assuming 2025 fits your definition of soon. Called the Ram 1500 REVolution, it promises a 229 kWh battery and 500 miles of range. But let’s be honest. Carrying a ton of stuff in the load bed or towing a travel trailer knocks the hell out of any range claim.

That’s the reality and it’s why many prospective pickup truck buyers are skittish about buying a battery electric model. For those people, Ram has come up with a brilliant solution — the Ramcharger 1500. It is built on exactly the same chassis as the REVolution 1500 except instead of 500 miles from a 229 kWh battery, it has a projected range of 145 miles from either a 98 kWh battery (Autoblog) or a 71 kWh battery (Car and Driver).

But here’s the big news about the Ramcharger. It will come with the tried and true Pentastar 3.6 liter V-6 engine, a version of which is part of the Pacifica plug-in hybrid package. That engine is not connected to the wheels. It’s sole job is to power a 130 kW generator that feeds electrons to the battery while driving. That’s why Ram says the Ramcharger has a projected range of 690 miles, or as Ram CEO Tim Kuniskis says, “Range anxiety, gone.”